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pH oddity


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#1 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 06:51 AM

This weekend I brewed up 2 batches of Citra Wheat pale Ale, the only difference was one got Brewtan and the other did not.  This issue I rean into was pH.  I did this as a no-sparge beer.  8G in my MLT so I could run off 6.75g to my kettle for a 30 minute boil.  Bru'n Water ( as shown below) predicted a pH of 5.39 and I got no where close to that.  On the first beer the mash pH was 5.75 and on the second ( Brewtan ) it was 5.71.  My pH meter was calibrated prior to testing and again once the measurements were taken.  The only new thing I used was Gambrinus Pale malt because I wanted to use the same Two Row for both beers and I was running low on CMC Two Row.  Could that mess the pH up that much?  What else could it have been?

 

Oh and do not mind the "Jever (boiled)" below.  That was in there but I was aiming for a water profile I used before.  I wanted this posted so my starting water could be seen.

 

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#2 Big Nake

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 06:58 AM

No idea. The only malt I have seen make a difference was Rahr Pale Alt malt which seemed to make the pH spike a little lower (Martin even mentioned that he would add a correction to it for anyone using that malt). But I can't see how this could happen unless there is something weird going on with the Gambrinus.

#3 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:02 AM

Also, I added closer to 5ML of 88% lactic because it was easier to measure out in the little cup thingy I had.  Not that 0.2ml is that much but I would have expected the pH to have been lower than predicted with the extra.



#4 positiveContact

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:14 AM

Check how far you'd have to adjust the lovibond on the base malt until you get to the measured ph. That should tell you if having the wrong value for that malt is really capable of throwing your ph off by that much.

My prediction is that it's not enough.

#5 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:14 AM

Kai showed that pale base malts of approximately the same color could have a mash pH that varied by at least 2-3 pH points, so it is possible, theoretically.

#6 positiveContact

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:16 AM

Check how far you'd have to adjust the lovibond on the base malt until you get to the measured ph. That should tell you if having the wrong value for that malt is really capable of throwing your ph off by that much.

My prediction is that it's not enough.

#7 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:18 AM

It would be at the extreme, though.

#8 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:20 AM

Wheat is alkaline, so a new lot of that might have a bigger influence. Does Brunwater take the alkalinity of wheat malt into account?

Edited by Brauer, 28 November 2016 - 07:21 AM.


#9 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:20 AM

Check how far you'd have to adjust the lovibond on the base malt until you get to the measured ph. That should tell you if having the wrong value for that malt is really capable of throwing your ph off by that much.

My prediction is that it's not enough.

So I changed them all to 1l and I got 5.42 as the expected pH

 

 

Kai showed that pale base malts of approximately the same color could have a mash pH that varied by at least 2-3 pH points, so it is possible, theoretically.

 

Thanks, I will go and take a look at Kai's site to see if I can figure anything out.



#10 positiveContact

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:21 AM

It would be at the extreme, though.

 

I wasn't reading your previous post when I posted.  just a coincidence I used similar wording :P

 

I was unaware that two base malts with the same lovibond value could yield mash pH that is that far apart.  I was just thinking about the difference in lovibond from manufacturer to manufacturer wouldn't be enough.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 28 November 2016 - 07:21 AM.


#11 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:21 AM

Wheat is alkaline, so a new lot of that might have a bigger influence.

 

I have used this batch of wheat in several beers without issue so that is why I thought the pale malt.



#12 positiveContact

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:22 AM

I have used this batch of wheat in several beers without issue so that is why I thought the pale malt.

 

have you used it at that high of a percentage?  I'm guessing this beer was 1/2 wheat?



#13 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:29 AM

have you used it at that high of a percentage?  I'm guessing this beer was 1/2 wheat?

5# wheat

5# two row

.5 caravienne

 

No, I have not used it that high. 



#14 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:29 AM

No idea. The only malt I have seen make a difference was Rahr Pale Alt malt which seemed to make the pH spike a little lower (Martin even mentioned that he would add a correction to it for anyone using that malt). But I can't see how this could happen unless there is something weird going on with the Gambrinus.

Yeah, Rahr is the big outlier. Maybe Gambrinus is an outlier in the other direction. That could be tested easily enough, like Evil mentioned.

#15 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:34 AM

No, I have not used it that high.

That's what brought my attention to the wheat malt, which is usually about 0.3 pH higher than barley malt.

Above, I should have said 0.2-0.3 pH variability for barley malt, of course.

#16 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 08:40 AM

Say I took .25# if wheat and did up a small half gallon mash  with the same water profile I had for this beer.  Would that give me an accurate outcome?  I would do the same with the pale.  



#17 shaggaroo

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:06 AM

It should at least show you if there's a difference. Use the same amount of malt and the same amount of water. Make sure the pH meter is calibrated, measure both at same temperature, yada yada



#18 HVB

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:08 AM

It should at least show you if there's a difference. Use the same amount of malt and the same amount of water. Make sure the pH meter is calibrated, measure both at same temperature, yada yada

That was all my plan.  It would at least give me some numbers and maybe a bit of information.



#19 Brauer

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:40 AM

Say I took .25# if wheat and did up a small half gallon mash with the same water profile I had for this beer. Would that give me an accurate outcome? I would do the same with the pale.

Yes, keeping the water ratio the same is important, as Shagaroo, said, but otherwise, you could make up a pint in a french press, which I've used for starters.

#20 denny

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:23 AM

Before we go too far of the deep end, why not just email Martin and ask him if he has any ideas?




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