31 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

My guess is that you'll never notice the difference.

My understanding is that the quicker/ramp up method creates a cleaner, better lager in less time. Is that right? Does that mean that the lager sitting at the lower temp for a longer time creates flavors that need to be "smoothed out" with a long, cold lager phase? I guess I have a hard time visualizing what happens with a lager flavor-wise when it's lagered, not lagered, etc. I know that I [usually] have to leave it warm for some time before I crash it or I may get some diacetyl so that I can understand but I'm not sure about flavors, pre-cursors to flavors, etc. and why the quicker method is better. I haven't picked up a BYO in awhile so I'll have to find the issue with your article. Do you know which month it will be in?

[Steve Urquell]

Actually, the cleanup should happen simultaneously with fermentation, rather than afterward.  That's something I cover in the BYO article.

I don't go to 70F while active fermentation is occurring but do afterwards. I do this because acetaldehyde boils at 68.4F. I cannot say scientifically (blind tasting blah,blah) that acetaldehyde is reduced with my 70F/3 day+ rest but I know that I haven't had a green apple batch since I started doing this. This became my SOP after letting a batch sit for 3 weeks at 65F waiting for the apple to go away. I researched acetaldehyde until I found its boiling temp and adjusted my procedure accordingly.

 

On another note re fast ferment: After reading the German brewing forum and their thoughts on the fast ferment process (they think it destroys the malt flavor with the high temp) I fermented a batch and never let it rise above 50F. It was a recipe that I had a batch of on tap fermented in my normal way. The always cold batch had off flavors which took 4+ weeks of lagering to age out and the final product was inferior to my fast ferment method in every way even now after 2 months.

 

These guys need to step back and brew a few batches side-by-side and compare before making judgements of others' process. I keep an open mind on process and to ways improve my product. I would try LODO and test it side by side with a non-LODO batch but I'm not willing to expend that much effort on any brewday--regardless of the end product.

[HVB]

I don't go to 70F while active fermentation is occurring but do afterwards. I do this because acetaldehyde boils at 68.4F. I cannot say scientifically (blind tasting blah,blah) that acetaldehyde is reduced with my 70F/3 day+ rest but I know that I haven't had a green apple batch since I started doing this. This became my SOP after letting a batch sit for 3 weeks at 65F waiting for the apple to go away. I researched acetaldehyde until I found its boiling temp and adjusted my procedure accordingly.

On another note re fast ferment: After reading the German brewing forum and their thoughts on the fast ferment process (they think it destroys the malt flavor with the high temp) I fermented a batch and never let it rise above 50F. It was a recipe that I had a batch of on tap fermented in my normal way. The always cold batch had off flavors which took 4+ weeks of lagering to age out and the final product was inferior to my fast ferment method in every way even now after 2 months.

These guys need to step back and brew a few batches side-by-side and compare before making judgements of others' process. I keep an open mind on process and to ways improve my product. I would try LODO and test it side by side with a non-LODO batch but I'm not willing to expend that much effort on any brewday--regardless of the end product.

That was not an off flavor that was "it"...

[Steve Urquell]

That was not an off flavor that was "it"...

LOL. Maybe "it" is missing the prefix "sh"

[Big Nake]

I don't go to 70F while active fermentation is occurring but do afterwards. I do this because acetaldehyde boils at 68.4F. I cannot say scientifically (blind tasting blah,blah) that acetaldehyde is reduced with my 70F/3 day+ rest but I know that I haven't had a green apple batch since I started doing this. This became my SOP after letting a batch sit for 3 weeks at 65F waiting for the apple to go away. I researched acetaldehyde until I found its boiling temp and adjusted my procedure accordingly.
 
On another note re fast ferment: After reading the German brewing forum and their thoughts on the fast ferment process (they think it destroys the malt flavor with the high temp) I fermented a batch and never let it rise above 50F. It was a recipe that I had a batch of on tap fermented in my normal way. The always cold batch had off flavors which took 4+ weeks of lagering to age out and the final product was inferior to my fast ferment method in every way even now after 2 months.
 
These guys need to step back and brew a few batches side-by-side and compare before making judgements of others' process. I keep an open mind on process and to ways improve my product. I would try LODO and test it side by side with a non-LODO batch but I'm not willing to expend that much effort on any brewday--regardless of the end product.

The GBF aside, I have heard nothing but good stuff regarding the quicker lager schedule in terms of ease, speed and also quality. I have heard this over and over so I don't doubt it. My issue is probably one of either 1) laziness or 2) a fear of needing to monitor my beers more closely. When I make a lager, I chill the wort down to about 50°, oxygenate, pitch and place the fermenter in the fridge which is set to 48° and I just forget about it... which is nice. 2 weeks (or so) go by and I take it out of the fridge, swirl it and leave it on the basement floor to clean up, reduce diacetyl, and clarify. Then it's off to a keg to crash to 35° or so. So I'll do something closer to this quick method next time. Back to the GBF... it's possible that they're just not going to accept anything that doesn't look like German brewing no matter what. They look at a lot of old books, etc. and they may just not be open-minded on things and that goes directly against my thought process... I'll listen to anything and I'll try anything if it means better beer. No, I won't participate in 9-hour brewdays (I don't have that kind of time) or jump through rings of fire but I'll listen and experiment. I don't think they will.

[Brauer]

The fast ferment was espoused by a German brewer, Narziss, who showed that off flavors were higher mid-fermentation, with a warm ferment in mid 50s, but were then removed more quickly (days instead of weeks) and finished at lower concentrations. He showed that a cold ferment could be fixed by ramping the temperature into the mid 50s for a rew days mid-fermentation (he targetted 50%), or raising the temperature to 68F at the very end of active fermentation, when it visibly slows, or by adding kräusen. This produced beer that was essentially finished and chilling at 8-10 days instead of weeks, with lower diacetyl. Lagering is a different process, then, since it is more a matter of clarification and esterification, than waiting for off-flavors to dissipate.

[positiveContact]

The fast ferment was espoused by a German brewer, Narziss, who showed that off flavors were higher mid-fermentation, with a warm ferment in mid 50s, but were then removed more quickly (days instead of weeks) and finished at lower concentrations. He showed that a cold ferment could be fixed by ramping the temperature into the mid 50s for a rew days mid-fermentation (he targetted 50%), or raising the temperature to 68F at the very end of active fermentation, when it visibly slows, or by adding kräusen. This produced beer that was essentially finished and chilling at 8-10 days instead of weeks, with lower diacetyl. Lagering is a different process, then, since it is more a matter of clarification and esterification, than waiting for off-flavors to dissipate.

 

you'd think the LODO guys would be all about this.  a key part of their story is drinking the freshest beer possible if I remember correctly.  I'm def all for drinking it early!

[HVB]

you'd think the LODO guys would be all about this.  a key part of their story is drinking the freshest beer possible if I remember correctly.  I'm def all for drinking it early and often!

FTFM

[Brauer]

you'd think the LODO guys would be all about this. a key part of their story is drinking the freshest beer possible if I remember correctly. I'm def all for drinking it early!

I've been told that's why German brewers use this technique, but I've never been able to determine how widely it is used.

[positiveContact]

I've been told that's why German brewers use this technique, but I've never been able to determine how widely it is used.

 

I'm guessing the germans rip through product.  I highly doubt anything sits around for a long time.

[Brauer]

I'm guessing the germans rip through product. I highly doubt anything sits around for a long time.

True, and they also don't like it to be old before it even hits the taps.

[denny]

I don't go to 70F while active fermentation is occurring but do afterwards. I do this because acetaldehyde boils at 68.4F. I cannot say scientifically (blind tasting blah,blah) that acetaldehyde is reduced with my 70F/3 day+ rest but I know that I haven't had a green apple batch since I started doing this. This became my SOP after letting a batch sit for 3 weeks at 65F waiting for the apple to go away. I researched acetaldehyde until I found its boiling temp and adjusted my procedure accordingly.

 

On another note re fast ferment: After reading the German brewing forum and their thoughts on the fast ferment process (they think it destroys the malt flavor with the high temp) I fermented a batch and never let it rise above 50F. It was a recipe that I had a batch of on tap fermented in my normal way. The always cold batch had off flavors which took 4+ weeks of lagering to age out and the final product was inferior to my fast ferment method in every way even now after 2 months.

 

These guys need to step back and brew a few batches side-by-side and compare before making judgements of others' process. I keep an open mind on process and to ways improve my product. I would try LODO and test it side by side with a non-LODO batch but I'm not willing to expend that much effort on any brewday--regardless of the end product.

 

Oh, come on, be reasonable!  You mean you want them to actually test things and provide evidence rather than just spouting opinions?