23 replies to this topic

[deejaydan]

I've been brewing more the last few weeks, and am planning on tackling a Belgian this weekend.  Picked up ingredients tonight, and planning on brewing it up tomorrow, a simple strong golden.  The more I read, the more I'm seeing suggestions about doing a multi step mash, with a protein rest, at 122, then a saccarification rest at 149... and another rest at 158.. Don't know if I can do this all in my cooler setup.  Thoughts/opinions/tips?

 

[neddles]

Depending on grist and how long you do that protein rest there is the potential to do some harm by breaking down proteins too far impacting body and head quality and retention.

As far as the separate beta and alpha rests you certainly wont hurt anything that I know of. My current procedure includes a separate alpha rest for almost every batch these days. The biggest benefit I get from it is near perfect predictability of my preboil gravity. Long rests (90min or more) at beta temps would not consistently get me 100% conversion. Nowadays if I mash an average gravity beer for 45min in beta range and then give it a good 10 minutes at 158-160F I will see complete conversion everytime as well as good fermentability and residual body in the final beer. No long mashes anymore.

[Big Nake]

Many people are fans of this while others say that it makes no difference. I did try a couple of Hochkurz mashes (145x60 and then 160x30) and I have a very basic setup... a cooler. I do not have a direct-fired MT. So the thought is to take your strike water and divide it into three parts. It doesn't have to be equal parts but you're going to start with a thicker mash (at 122) while "strike water part 2" is heating and you probably have to get it close to boiling and then add it a little at a time and check to see how close you are to your second temp (149)... meanwhile "strike water #3" is heating and you'll do the same thing and try to get to 158. I got very lucky with mine but that was just bumping it once. If you get to 158 and you still have water left over you could either cool it (ice maybe?) to 168 and add it or just save it for the sparge... if you sparge. This is tricky without the advanced mashing tools.

[deejaydan]

I do plan on sparging.. I've got a 48 qt cooler, grain bill is 12 lbs of Castle Pils and 1/4lb of Biscuit and 1/4 lb of Aromatic.  My HLT is a 3 1/2 gallon pot, It works well for me for single infusion... I might give the Hochkurz mash thing a try...

[neddles]

With that grain bill I am not sure there is any good logic for doing a protein rest that I have heard. 

[Big Nake]

With that grain bill I am not sure there is any good logic for doing a protein rest that I have heard.

This is one of those flip a coin things. I used a Hochkurz mash two or three times (which by the way was 145x30 and 158x60... what I posted earlier was incorrect) and didn't notice anything very different with the beers but so much has changed with my brewing since that time so I should probably try it again. I think Denny mentioned that he tried it and didn't see any positive results and there may have been an Exbeeriment on it too. Anyway, if you do it, assume you'll start with a stiffer mash at the first temp and then add [hot] water to the MT to get to the next temp. I think I did 3.5 gallons to get to 145 and then got another 1.5 gallons to boiling and when I added it, I was at 158 (which is crazy lucky). Good luck DJD.

[neddles]

This is one of those flip a coin things. I used a Hochkurz mash two or three times (which by the way was 145x30 and 158x60... what I posted earlier was incorrect) and didn't notice anything very different with the beers but so much has changed with my brewing since that time so I should probably try it again. I think Denny mentioned that he tried it and didn't see any positive results and there may have been an Exbeeriment on it too. Anyway, if you do it, assume you'll start with a stiffer mash at the first temp and then add [hot] water to the MT to get to the next temp. I think I did 3.5 gallons to get to 145 and then got another 1.5 gallons to boiling and when I added it, I was at 158 (which is crazy lucky). Good luck DJD.

I won't claim I taste any difference in the beers with a step mash. However the predictability and consistency of the outcome is appealing to me. Also having the ability to get the 100% conversion, high fermentability, and still retain a pleasant amount of body all in 60 min of mashing is appealing.

[positiveContact]

based on my few step mash experiences I don't think I'd bother.

[Brauer]

I step mash every beer I make, too. I've done it 50 times or more, I'd estimate. I do a 2 step of 148-158°F to 162°F, to control FG and insure 100% conversion, as Neddles said. I recommend the stepwise addition that Ken describes for the first attempt, but I use BeerTools Pro software, which includes mash tun calibration, and it accurately predicts the step infusion volume and temperature. That makes it a reasonably effortless process.

I modeled your 3 step infusion mash and it would work on my system with a 2.25 gallon thick protein rest, a 2 gallon infusion to 149°F with 195°F water and a final 2 gallon infusion with 188°F water, ending at a nice 2 qt/# thickness. Your system will probably be different, but you could probably pull it off with boiling water additions until you hit your temps. I'd drop the protein rest, though, personally. Dropping the protein rest also makes the precision of the step less crucial, since your alpha rest should be fine anywhere in the 158-162°F window, but you probably would want to be pretty close to your 149°F rest.

Edited by Brauer, 03 December 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[positiveContact]

what is different about your systems that you need to do a step mash to get full conversion?  I'm usually around 80% system efficiency and I do a minimal sparge.  this tells me my conversion must be pretty good.

 

beyond the potential for conversion improvement I'm not sure what someone would get out of doing a step mash.  and given that I would think unless you had a conversion problem it wouldn't be worth the effort.

[HVB]

based on my few step mash experiences I don't think I'd bother.

Kinda my feeling too. Even talking with a commercial brewer about it he agreed most malts these days are malted so "hot" that mash temps don't seem to matter as much.

[Brauer]

what is different about your systems that you need to do a step mash to get full conversion? I'm usually around 80% system efficiency and I do a minimal sparge. this tells me my conversion must be pretty good.

beyond the potential for conversion improvement I'm not sure what someone would get out of doing a step mash. and given that I would think unless you had a conversion problem it wouldn't be worth the effort.

I used to get ~93-95% conversion with a single infusion of 148-152°F, but some brewers appear to only get ~80% conversion (since they only get ~65% mash efficiency). The ability of the starch to gelatinize will probably vary with crush, malt type, barley cultiver and crop. 100% conversion gives me absolutely predictable OG and slightly reduces the amount of husk material.

Mostly, though, I'm trying to control apparent dryness and body. I also use it to give me a little leeway on time, if I'm tied up with something else, since it allows me to shut off the beta conversion.

For me it takes little effort; the same work as a mashout, I suppose, and less than a batch sparge. Pour in a little hot water and stir.

[neddles]

Kinda my feeling too. Even talking with a commercial brewer about it he agreed most malts these days are malted so "hot" that mash temps don't seem to matter as much.

Despite the DP of the malts I still dont completely convert @148F. And its worse when stuff like flaked grains are added in any quantity. Simply letting it go 90 minutes doesnt seem to get the job done every time either. My understding is that most the beta amylase is toast by 30 minutes. Plus there is the variability in gelatinization Brauer mentioned which I suspect is playing a part. A short alpha rest finishes conversion for me and gives me consistent 100% conversion in a 60 min mash even when large portions of flaked grains are involved. Plus I get the fermentabilty I want. I will still do a single temp. infusion when mashing hotter, like >155F.

On your system are you able to do a step mash with just a flick of a switch or is it a little more complicated?

[denny]

I have done many step mashes and have yet to find any improvement to my beer for the extra time and effort.

[HVB]

On your system are you able to do a step mash with just a flick of a switch or is it a little more complicated?

Two pushes of a button.

I also just mash 30 at sacc temp the give it 15 to ramp to mash out.

Edited by drez77, 03 December 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[neddles]

Two pushes of a button.

I also just mash 30 at sacc temp the give it 15 to ramp to mash out.

So you may be getting your conversion bump from that ramp. Do you know if you're getting complete conversion? I am going to try shortening my beta rests here at some point but I want to do it on an established recipe.

[Brauer]

So you may be getting your conversion bump from that ramp. Do you know if you're getting complete conversion? I am going to try shortening my beta rests here at some point but I want to do it on an established recipe.

Yeah, that's probably equivalent to an alpha rest.

[positiveContact]

So you may be getting your conversion bump from that ramp. Do you know if you're getting complete conversion? I am going to try shortening my beta rests here at some point but I want to do it on an established recipe.

 

not to rub salt in the wound but despite that drez seems to suffer from slightly lower efficiency than he'd like.  I don't think his temp rise at the end of his mash is doing a whole lot to get him more complete conversion.  or maybe conversion isn't his issue - I really can't remember what he has found out so far.

[neddles]

The latter is my bet but he's possibly learned some new stuff since I last remember him talking about it.

[HVB]

So you may be getting your conversion bump from that ramp. Do you know if you're getting complete conversion? I am going to try shortening my beta rests here at some point but I want to do it on an established recipe.

My last two were near 100% conversion using Kim's chart. I have numbers from before and after the ramp but I will need to dig them out.