22 replies to this topic

[mikebrad]

I haven't really brewed or read brewing forums in about 5 years but I'm looking to get back into doing a handful of batches a year as a small hobby.  It is interesting to see how how much automation has increased in the last 5 years but I'm planning to stick to the old cooler/batch sparge methods.  Another topic that I see discussed far more than I remember is water chemistry.  I never paid much attention to it in the past and never had efficiency or taste problems with my beers.  I have moved since I last brewed so I went ahead and got an analysis done of my tap water.  I threw the numbers into one of the online tools and it showed the Ca and SO4 as "low, but not necessarily an issue" and that it would favor a malty profile.  I'm not looking to win any awards, but I do mostly brew pale ales and IPAs so I may want to make some adjustments that would favor those styles.  It seems like I would add gypsum to bring these levels up to a better balance.  Curious if you guys had any other thoughts looking at the report and what tools, if any, you use for your water calculations.

 

pH 7.7

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 260

Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.43

Cations / Anions, me/L 3.7 / 4.0

 

Sodium, Na                     30

Potassium, K                   5

Calcium, Ca                    27

Magnesium, Mg              10

Total Hardness, CaCO3 109

Nitrate, NO3-N                2.0

Sulfate, SO4-S                 5

Chloride, Cl                     85

Carbonate, CO3             < 1.0

Bicarbonate, HCO3         66

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3    54

Total Phosphorus, P        0.17

Total Iron, Fe                 < 0.01

 

For what it's worth, I did my first batch over the weekend.  It was a wheat ale (50/50 pale/wheat malt) with an OG of around 1.05.  I didn't modify the water.  The mash pH was around 5 with just a simple pH paper test and efficiency I'd estimate was in the 75-80% range with a single batch sparge.

[positiveContact]

for pale ales and IPAs I'd say you are on the right track with adding gypsum (some of this stuff is personal preference of course).  I'm surprised your pH was so low on what I'm assuming was a pretty light colored beer.  have you entered those numbers in bru'n water to see what it predicts your mash pH would have been?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 06 February 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[mikebrad]

About all I can say with confidence using a pH strip is that it wasn't 4 and it wasn't 6. I suppose it could be anywhere in the 5 range. I did download the bru'n water spreadsheet but haven't taken the time to read how to use it yet.

[denny]

This is what you need....httpss://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

About all I can say with confidence using a pH strip is that it wasn't 4 and it wasn't 6. I suppose it could be anywhere in the 5 range. I did download the bru'n water spreadsheet but haven't taken the time to read how to use it yet.

 

httpss://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMTA_VmqhbQ

[Big Nake]

A couple things: Your sulfate shown as SO4-S means that you will multiply that number by 3 so your sulfate is 15. Your chloride is 85. I pay attention to these two numbers because chloride promotes a beer with a full, smooth, round character and sulfate promotes a beer with a more sharp and crisp character. Your water is best suited for malty beers because of your difference between chloride and sulfate. Your water would probably make a great Oktoberfest or Vienna. I like to get my calcium up into the 50-60ppm range and for that you will probably want to add gypsum. Any of the sheets (EZ_Water, Bru'N'Water, etc) will tell you what your new ppm is as you add x amount of something. The nice thing about BNW is that Martin Brungard occasionally contributes to this board. It's a little involved but it's manageable. The only other thing to consider is the 7.7 pH and how to manage that. 88% lactic acid is what I use and it's nice to use it with a dropper labeled in milliliters and the sheets will give you the results of that too. Good luck & ask Qs here if you have them. That's another member coming back to making beer!

[positiveContact]

A couple things: Your sulfate shown as SO4-S means that you will multiply that number by 3 so your sulfate is 15. Your chloride is 85. I pay attention to these two numbers because chloride promotes a beer with a full, smooth, round character and sulfate promotes a beer with a more sharp and crisp character. Your water is best suited for malty beers because of your difference between chloride and sulfate. Your water would probably make a great Oktoberfest or Vienna. I like to get my calcium up into the 50-60ppm range and for that you will probably want to add gypsum. Any of the sheets (EZ_Water, Bru'N'Water, etc) will tell you what your new ppm is as you add x amount of something. The nice thing about BNW is that Martin Brungard occasionally contributes to this board. It's a little involved but it's manageable. The only other thing to consider is the 7.7 pH and how to manage that. 88% lactic acid is what I use and it's nice to use it with a dropper labeled in milliliters and the sheets will give you the results of that too. Good luck & ask Qs here if you have them. That's another member coming back to making beer!

 

I'm not sure how sensitive the mash pH is to the water pH.  I don't have the spreadsheet in front of me but if you do try stepping that number from 6-7 in small increments and note how the predicted mash pH changes.  I bet it's not a lot.

 

also the idea that you can't make a hoppy beer with some chloride might be dated at this point.  some of us have done it here and liked the results.  to be fair I also kick the sulfate up too which mike could easily do.

[Bklmt2000]

the water overall looks good, but for most beers, some form of calcium will probably be needed, as ~27 ppm is a little low.  Mash activity and yeast flocculation, are enhanced by calcium at/above 50 ppm.

 

Since the sulfate is also relatively low, gypsum would be good to add for most anything hop-forward.

 

For a malt-forward lager like an Ofest or Vienna, enough calcim chloride to get >50 ppm calcium should be fine, so long as the chloride doesn't get unusually high (probably not likely, but let BNW tell you that).

[Big Nake]

The bicarb being at 66 should make pH management pretty easy. Bicarb will make it trickier to lower the pH and the more of it there is, the trickier it is to lower pH. But on that topic, it's good to know ahead of time how much of an acid to add to get into the sweet spot on pH so that you don't have grains and water mixed together at a pH over 6.0 or so... which could cause trouble. Punch the numbers into BNW (including water ions, how much CaCl or CaSO4 is added *and* lactic acid) and see where the mash pH comes in and adjust from there.

also the idea that you can't make a hoppy beer with some chloride might be dated at this point.  some of us have done it here and liked the results.  to be fair I also kick the sulfate up too which mike could easily do.

When I make a hoppy beer my chloride and sulfate are about even or possibly slightly favor sulfate. But personally I wouldn't make a hoppy beer with Cl of 85 and SO4 of 15.

[Bklmt2000]

When I make a hoppy beer my chloride and sulfate are about even or possibly slightly favor sulfate. But personally I wouldn't make a hoppy beer with Cl of 85 and SO4 of 15.

 

Agreed. 

[positiveContact]

When I make a hoppy beer my chloride and sulfate are about even or possibly slightly favor sulfate. But personally I wouldn't make a hoppy beer with Cl of 85 and SO4 of 15.

 

true enough.  I didn't mean higher chloride only.  it's just that is used to be people seemed to think chloride in a hoppy beer was bad.  it doesn't seem to be.

[HVB]

true enough.  I didn't mean higher chloride only.  it's just that is used to be people seemed to think chloride in a hoppy beer was bad.  it doesn't seem to be.

I have seen many doing NE style beers with a 75/150 Sulfate/Chloride.  I have seen some goes as high as 200ppm chloride.

[positiveContact]

I have seen many doing NE style beers with a 75/150 Sulfate/Chloride.  I have seen some goes as high as 200ppm chloride.

 

still 75ish ppm sulfate on that 200 ppm chloride beer?

[HVB]

still 75ish ppm sulfate on that 200 ppm chloride beer?

75-100. 

 

I will be honest that I have not done it yet.  Most of mine are still higher SO4 but one of these days I will give it a go.

[Big Nake]

75-100. 
 
I will be honest that I have not done it yet.  Most of mine are still higher SO4 but one of these days I will give it a go.

I find that I am more a fan of chloride than sulfate but that might suggest that I am a fan of maltier beers which would surprise no one. That said, if I were making a beer like a pale ale where I wanted the hops to stand out and be CRISP, I would have about even levels of sulfate and chloride in the water. I used to see people saying that they would have a hard time making their hops POP and if that were someone's struggle, chloride would NOT be helping you.

[HVB]

I find that I am more a fan of chloride than sulfate but that might suggest that I am a fan of maltier beers which would surprise no one. That said, if I were making a beer like a pale ale where I wanted the hops to stand out and be CRISP, I would have about even levels of sulfate and chloride in the water. I used to see people saying that they would have a hard time making their hops POP and if that were someone's struggle, chloride would NOT be helping you.

That is the thing, NE style beers that I am talking about do not have hops popping like we all think of with a wet coast beer.  It is a very different beer.

[Big Nake]

Mike, I'm not sure how much of this you already know or how much of it you WANT to know so I apologize if any of this is irrelevant, redundant or unnecessary. But just to bring it full circle, I had a guy that I was emailing with who said his beers lacked depth and they were always very sharp. I asked him about his water and he said he didn't know but that to boost calcium, he always added about 4-5 tsp of gypsum to the water. Eventually he got his water checked and he had somewhere around the reverse of your water... higher sulfate and low chloride. And then he was adding more sulfate so his water was very unbalanced. The chloride creates that depth and may bring out maltiness. Still, there are beers where "out of balance" can work. When I make a Munich Helles, I add about 3g of CaCl to the water and NO sulfate. That brings my chloride around 70ppm but my sulfate (from my source water) stays at 27pm. For that style, it works.
 

That is the thing, NE style beers that I am talking about do not have hops popping like we all think of with a wet coast beer. It is a very different beer.

Interesting. I haven't had a lot of NE IPAs.

There was a time when people were saying they couldn't get that over the top hop character. They were trying late hops, whirlpooling, dry hopping and STILL they couldn't get enough. I don't know for sure that thier water was a culprit but more sulfate always seems to help in that regard.

[mikebrad]

Thanks for all the replies. I did spend a few minutes playing with bru'n water. It looks like basically everything will require some calcium and probably an acid and the rest can be adjusted to style.

[Bklmt2000]

Thanks for all the replies. I did spend a few minutes playing with bru'n water. It looks like basically everything will require some calcium and probably an acid and the rest can be adjusted to style.

 

Agreed; your water is a good water to start with, and adjusting it should be pretty simple, especially if you make friends w/ Bru'n water.

[Genesee Ted]

I also like chloride in my IPAs

[HVB]

I also like chloride in my IPAs

agree!