46 replies to this topic

[Deerslyr]

Ok... so on my old picnic cooler system, I did some overnight mashes and/or extended mashes while I went away for a few hours.  No problem.  

 

With my Grainfather system, I can now stabilize the mash temp.  Are there any dangers?  I was asking on a Grainfather forum about the equipment and some guy said he would be concerned about tannin extraction from the husks.  My understanding was that occurred when husks were exposed to higher temperatures than what we mash at.  Is my understanding correct?  If I mash at 150 degrees for around 4 hours (give or take) do you think there would be tannin extraction?

I want to call bullshit on the guy, but need the backup first.

[Big Nake]

I have heard tannin extraction (as it relates to temp) to come into play around 175° or higher. However, I believe that was debunked when Brulosophy actually dumped a bunch of spent grain into the brew kettle (and boiled it) and found there to be no detectable downside. Also, tannins come into play when a mash or batch sparge end up at a pH higher than about 6.0. Ask me how I know. That has not been debunked.

I think your long mash would result in a VERY fermentable wort.

[Bklmt2000]

So long as the mash pH is in the acceptable range, the risk of tannin extraction is essentially nil.

 

Temp is not the culprit for tannin extraction, but pH values >6 are of concern.

[Big Nake]

So long as the mash pH is in the acceptable range, the risk of tannin extraction is essentially nil.
 
Temp is not the culprit for tannin extraction, but pH values >6 are of concern.

I seem to remember back in my early all-grain, batch-sparging days that people were saying to heat sparge water no higher than 175° because at that temp, tannins could be an issue. At some point people started talking about heating batch sparge water to only 120-140° and then some others started saying WHY HEAT THE SPARGE WATER AT ALL? which made the 175° thing pretty irrelevant. I have no idea if it's true but it was repeated a number of times just like many other brewing "information". What that has to do with an extended mash at the proper temp, I don't know.

[denny]

Ok... so on my old picnic cooler system, I did some overnight mashes and/or extended mashes while I went away for a few hours.  No problem.  

 

With my Grainfather system, I can now stabilize the mash temp.  Are there any dangers?  I was asking on a Grainfather forum about the equipment and some guy said he would be concerned about tannin extraction from the husks.  My understanding was that occurred when husks were exposed to higher temperatures than what we mash at.  Is my understanding correct?  If I mash at 150 degrees for around 4 hours (give or take) do you think there would be tannin extraction?

I want to call bullshit on the guy, but need the backup first.

 

It's not temp, it's pH.  How about a decoction?  You boil the grain, right, and there's no negative tannin extraction.  That's because the pH is in the right range.

I seem to remember back in my early all-grain, batch-sparging days that people were saying to heat sparge water no higher than 175° because at that temp, tannins could be an issue. At some point people started talking about heating batch sparge water to only 120-140° and then some others started saying WHY HEAT THE SPARGE WATER AT ALL? which made the 175° thing pretty irrelevant. I have no idea if it's true but it was repeated a number of times just like many other brewing "information". What that has to do with an extended mash at the proper temp, I don't know.

 

My sparge water runs 185-190F.  That helps get me a bit more conversion.

[Big Nake]

It's not temp, it's pH.  How about a decoction?  You boil the grain, right, and there's no negative tannin extraction.  That's because the pH is in the right range.

Seeing a decoction process was the first time I thought to myself... But... but... you're not supposed to "boil" grain! Even as extract brewers we were taught to steep the specialties at 150° and discard them before raising the temp of the water.

[Deerslyr]

I guess I need to start worrying about water... just call me Ken Jr.!

 

Ken, you want to come up here sometime and learn me about water??? 

[Big Nake]

I guess I need to start worrying about water... just call me Ken Jr.!
 
Ken, you want to come up here sometime and learn me about water???

Absolutely. Can we wait for it to warm up a little bit, though? Ask any question about water that you want. I am NOT a water expert. I usually tell anyone who is interested what I do with my own water and what may differ based on their own water. Otherwise, once you have it down, you have it down.

[Deerslyr]

Need to head to the LHBS.  What do I need to test the PH? And what do I need to do to correct it?

 

I need something even less than the Cliff Notes version to get started.  Thing more like Twitter... 140 characters or less!  LOL

Also... you know I brew indoors, right???

[denny]

Need to head to the LHBS.  What do I need to test the PH? And what do I need to do to correct it?

 

I need something even less than the Cliff Notes version to get started.  Thing more like Twitter... 140 characters or less!  LOL

Also... you know I brew indoors, right???

 

You really need a meter.  ColorpHast pH papers are OK, but not great.  Any other papers are worthless.  You need acid (lactic is easiest, some use phosphoric) to decrease pH and pickling lime or baking soda (depending on the Na content of your brewing water) to raise it.  And probably you shouldn't do anything until you have your water tested.  And read this...httpss://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Edited by denny, 03 March 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[Big Nake]

Lactic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate (gypsum) and a meter would be great but ColorpHast strips will work in a pinch. But I have never seen them at a LHBS... I have only gotten them online. Also, you REALLY need to know what's already in your water and the pH of your water or you won't know what direction to go when you start.

[armagh]

Lactic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate (gypsum) and a meter would be great but ColorpHast strips will work in a pinch. But I have never seen them at a LHBS... I have only gotten them online. Also, you REALLY need to know what's already in your water and the pH of your water or you won't know what direction to go when you start.

Can't be emphasized enough.  Ward Labs or some other service is critical for getting a base line.

[Big Nake]

Can't be emphasized enough.  Ward Labs or some other service is critical for getting a base line.

Yeah, even something from the village or county might be okay although sometimes the numbers are not as reliable and the guys at Ward Labs give you exactly what you need. I have had people email me about things that they were doing to their brewing water and how their beers were coming out terrible. When I asked for their water numbers they had no idea. How can they start to add anything if they don't know what's already in there? DS, if there's an online PDF or something regarding your water, that would be a start. If you're on a well or something and there is no way to find out, I suggest the W6 test (I think that's the one) from Ward Labs. It was $16.50 last time I checked.

[Hines]

W6 $35.75
W5a $42
W5 $42

[Hines]

Do you guys mind letting us know which tools (not papers) that you are using to test your ph?

[positiveContact]

most here recommend the omega meter.  if I ever get one it will be that or the general brand one that would hopefully be the same for a little less $$.

Ok... so on my old picnic cooler system, I did some overnight mashes and/or extended mashes while I went away for a few hours.  No problem.  

 

With my Grainfather system, I can now stabilize the mash temp.  Are there any dangers?  I was asking on a Grainfather forum about the equipment and some guy said he would be concerned about tannin extraction from the husks.  My understanding was that occurred when husks were exposed to higher temperatures than what we mash at.  Is my understanding correct?  If I mash at 150 degrees for around 4 hours (give or take) do you think there would be tannin extraction?

I want to call bullshit on the guy, but need the backup first.

 

if your pH is good you will be fine.  I mash overnight regularly without recirculation.  is there a reason you think recirculation would cause an additional issue?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 04 March 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[Hines]

Yeah, a reliable economy model would be more my speed.

[Big Nake]

Here, this is the one. I just pulled this off their site... It's $21 now. DS, if you decide to go down this road, start by getting your numbers somehow. You'll either need to send in a sample or get the water numbers from some published document somewhere. Once you get to that point we can look at what you have and what you can do with it.

[denny]

W6 $35.75
W5a $42
W5 $42

 

get W6 unless you know for certain you have other issues

[Deerslyr]

most here recommend the omega meter. if I ever get one it will be that or the general brand one that would hopefully be the same for a little less $$.


if your pH is good you will be fine. I mash overnight regularly without recirculation. is there a reason you think recirculation would cause an additional issue?

It was really an equipment question, wanting to know if people were generally comfortable leaving the machine running while gone for an extended period given that it has running electrical components.
The tannin question was a side question that came up.