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Recirculating Mash and Tannin Extraction


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#21 djinkc

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:32 PM

It was really an equipment question, wanting to know if people were generally comfortable leaving the machine running while gone for an extended period given that it has running electrical components.
The tannin question was a side question that came up.

For a while I recirculated with a EHERMS - because I could.  I came to the conclusion it didn't matter and my pump would last longer.



#22 Hines

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:51 PM

Does iron and phosphorus matter?

#23 Big Nake

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:25 AM

All of this begs the question... shouldn't the Grainfather (or whatever this thing is) have a pH meter built into it? :lol:

#24 denny

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

Does iron and phosphorus matter?

 

Iron matters a reasonable amount.  Phosphorus really doesn't unless it's incredibly high.



#25 Hines

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 10:55 AM

Iron matters a reasonable amount.  Phosphorus really doesn't unless it's incredibly high.


W6 doesn't test either of those. I will be ordering my tests tonight. Thanks for everyone sharing their knowledge....lots of my old thoughts on process are wrong.

#26 MyaCullen

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 04:18 PM

Iron matters a reasonable amount.  Phosphorus really doesn't unless it's incredibly high.

generally from my experience, if you have enough iron to affect home-brewing in your water, you don't really need a test to tell you, you'll taste and see it, i could be wrong here, but to me the iron an phosphor tests are wasted



#27 Deerslyr

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 04:59 PM

Guess who didn't brew today?

#28 HVB

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 05:05 PM

Guess who didn't brew today?


ME!

#29 Hines

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 10:09 AM

I just ordered my kit.  I feel like i'm joining a cult.

 

FWIW, here is what the checkout page says:

W-5A Brewer's Test Kit $42

W-5 Household complete mineral test kit $42

W-6 Household mineral test kit $35.75



#30 neddles

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 10:58 AM

Dont order all 3.

#31 Big Nake

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 11:02 AM

Maybe the prices are shown that way if you order a kit. I just filtered some water and sent it to them in a small water bottle, dropped it in a box and sent it to them. I did download the form from their site, filled it out and put it in the box. They emailed me my results.

#32 Hines

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:32 PM

Those prices are if they send you one of their bottles with return postage already paid.   Might be less hassle if you don't have the stuff on hand.   I did get an email stating they would email me my results within 1-2 days of them receiving the sample.  That's pretty good.



#33 HVB

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:38 PM

It was really an equipment question, wanting to know if people were generally comfortable leaving the machine running while gone for an extended period given that it has running electrical components.
The tannin question was a side question that came up.

I know mine is a different set up than yours but it is also all electric with lots of electrical components and I have no issues leaving it running for a long time.  Just this weekend I think it was on for 6+ hours while I was cleaning.



#34 mabrungard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 07:18 AM

Tannin extraction is primarily a function of wort gravity in contact with the grain and husks. Temperature has nothing to do with it (think about how hot decoction gets) and pH has only a minor role. I've had to cut off my final runnings at 4 or 5 Brix to avoid tannin extraction in my beers. I conduct continuous sparging and my system efficiency can be as high as 92%. That is not a good thing! Bumping up my final runnings cut off point has reduced my efficiency and improved my beers. Batch spargers don't need to worry about tannin extraction since their final runnings gravity tends to be high enough.



#35 Big Nake

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 07:26 AM

Tannin extraction is primarily a function of wort gravity in contact with the grain and husks. Temperature has nothing to do with it (think about how hot decoction gets) and pH has only a minor role. I've had to cut off my final runnings at 4 or 5 Brix to avoid tannin extraction in my beers. I conduct continuous sparging and my system efficiency can be as high as 92%. That is not a good thing! Bumping up my final runnings cut off point has reduced my efficiency and improved my beers. Batch spargers don't need to worry about tannin extraction since their final runnings gravity tends to be high enough.

But I know that I have ruined a number of batches of pale gold beer by adding my [batch] sparge water back to my mash without knocking the pH of that water down into the low-to-mid 5s. Harsh, husky, grainy flavor with a wicked sharp finish. I know you said "pH has only a minor role" but I'm pretty sure it ruined many batches of my beer in a major way. :D

#36 mabrungard

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 08:34 AM

But I know that I have ruined a number of batches of pale gold beer by adding my [batch] sparge water back to my mash without knocking the pH of that water down into the low-to-mid 5s. Harsh, husky, grainy flavor with a wicked sharp finish. I know you said "pH has only a minor role" but I'm pretty sure it ruined many batches of my beer in a major way. :D

And how low were the final runnings from that sparging? I've found that the final SG is the primary culprit.



#37 Big Nake

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

And how low were the final runnings from that sparging? I've found that the final SG is the primary culprit.

Batch sparge so not an issue.

#38 MyaCullen

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:11 AM

Batch sparge so not an issue.

I am not entirely sold on this, the last bit of a second batch sparge is pretty thin



#39 Big Nake

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:18 AM

I am not entirely sold on this, the last bit of a second batch sparge is pretty thin

I do one ~5 gallon mash plus one ~3 gallon sparge. The reason I mentioned the ruining of various pale beers in the past was because Brauer and some others suggested that I treat my sparge water and get the pH of it down into the low 5s or so. Once I started doing that, I haven't had a bad batch since. I was treating my mash water but not my [batch] sparge water and that was bringing out tannins. Also, many people have told me that when you mix up your batch sparge water and grains, the pH of the whole thing is the same... it doesn't matter if you're at the start of the runoff or the end... the pH of the whole thing is relatively consistent. If I'm missing something there, I'm interested in hearing it.

#40 denny

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:46 AM

I am not entirely sold on this, the last bit of a second batch sparge is pretty thin

 

If you're doing 2 batch sparges you should asses your technique and gear for improvements.




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