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Zero Hot Side Hops - Scott Janish Post


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#1 HVB

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:07 AM

https://scottjanish....ory-bitterness/

 

Very interesting test.  No hot side hops but tested at 76.9 IBU. 

 

I have been lately feeling that whirlpool/steeping was a wasted step and I still plan to play with that starting this weekend.  I plan to just hop at 5 minutes and not do the longer 30 minute whirlpool at 170 or less.  I also plan to add a dose of hops to the fermenter as I am running out of the chiller. 



#2 Big Nake

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:31 AM

There were times when people were saying that adding hops in the last 0-10 minutes of the boil were a waste of hops and that adding them in the 170° whirlpool was such an OMG! moment. But I'm not a brewer who has been in search of elusive hop nirvana so I'm not a good person to bounce this around with. Hops added in the last 10 minutes of the boil *plus* a whirlpool addition and even a DH addition give me all the hop character I'm looking for.

#3 HVB

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:25 AM

There were times when people were saying that adding hops in the last 0-10 minutes of the boil were a waste of hops and that adding them in the 170° whirlpool was such an OMG! moment. But I'm not a brewer who has been in search of elusive hop nirvana so I'm not a good person to bounce this around with. Hops added in the last 10 minutes of the boil *plus* a whirlpool addition and even a DH addition give me all the hop character I'm looking for.

I just do not think I am getting much from the WP addition and if I can drop that and save that time I will.  I know a local brewery only does a 60 minute bittering and the rest is all DH and people seem to like those beers.



#4 positiveContact

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:28 AM

I'd also enjoy to save time!



#5 3rd party JKor

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:36 AM

Wow, no joke?

Tl;dr

What was his dry hopping rate to get 77 IBU?

#6 HVB

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:42 AM

Wow, no joke?

Tl;dr

What was his dry hopping rate to get 77 IBU?

10oz for 5g.  so not really that much



#7 Big Nake

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:51 AM

10oz for 5g.  so not really that much

And it was all dry hops? I assume that the 170° whirlpool is still considered hot side. It's very interesting for sure. I remember there being a story recently about someone who did something similar where all of the hops were dry hops and so it was referred to as a "0 IBU IPA" since dry hops are supposed to add zero IBUs. If that's true, I don't understand how this guy got 77 IBUs from dry hops at only 10 ounces per 5 gallons.

#8 HVB

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:55 AM

And it was all dry hops? I assume that the 170° whirlpool is still considered hot side. It's very interesting for sure. I remember there being a story recently about someone who did something similar where all of the hops were dry hops and so it was referred to as a "0 IBU IPA" since dry hops are supposed to add zero IBUs. If that's true, I don't understand how this guy got 77 IBUs from dry hops at only 10 ounces per 5 gallons.


Yes all dry.

#9 denny

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:13 AM

I just do not think I am getting much from the WP addition and if I can drop that and save that time I will.  I know a local brewery only does a 60 minute bittering and the rest is all DH and people seem to like those beers.

 

I would agree with that.  After a fling with WP hops I've gone back to a traditional hop schedule.



#10 HVB

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:20 AM

I would agree with that.  After a fling with WP hops I've gone back to a traditional hop schedule.

Good to know it is not only me.



#11 positiveContact

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

I would agree with that.  After a fling with WP hops I've gone back to a traditional hop schedule.

 

time savings here I come!



#12 Bklmt2000

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:30 AM

I would agree with that.  After a fling with WP hops I've gone back to a traditional hop schedule.

 

Same here.  If we can also include hopstands in the WP category, then I'm definitely back on a traditional schedule.



#13 positiveContact

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:33 AM

Same here.  If we can also include hopstands in the WP category, then I'm definitely back on a traditional schedule.

 

always considered those to basically be the same thing in terms of impact on the final product.  both are done at hot but not boiling temps right?



#14 Bklmt2000

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:36 AM

always considered those to basically be the same thing in terms of impact on the final product.  both are done at hot but not boiling temps right?

 

When i did hopstands, it was always at ~180°F, so yes, hot but not boiling temps.  Took a while and several  batches, but I'm done with them.

 

For me, I've found that late boil additions add better flavor/aroma vs. hopstands, which too much time added to brew day for such little return.



#15 denny

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:16 AM

Same here.  If we can also include hopstands in the WP category, then I'm definitely back on a traditional schedule.

 

I definitely include them in that category.


When i did hopstands, it was always at ~180°F, so yes, hot but not boiling temps.  Took a while and several  batches, but I'm done with them.

 

For me, I've found that late boil additions add better flavor/aroma vs. hopstands, which too much time added to brew day for such little return.

 

And I've found I far prefer dry hop to WP hops.


And it was all dry hops? I assume that the 170° whirlpool is still considered hot side. It's very interesting for sure. I remember there being a story recently about someone who did something similar where all of the hops were dry hops and so it was referred to as a "0 IBU IPA" since dry hops are supposed to add zero IBUs. If that's true, I don't understand how this guy got 77 IBUs from dry hops at only 10 ounces per 5 gallons.

 

Recent research has shown that you get bitterness from dry hopping...don't you listen to the podcast?  :)  It comes from humulinones, which are oxidized alpha acids.



#16 3rd party JKor

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:28 AM

So now we can do 30 minute mashes and 10 minute boils with no hopping?  

 

This is getting too easy.  I'm going to need a new hobby!



#17 3rd party JKor

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:32 AM

Playing devil's advocate here...

 

How long would your brew day be if you only mashed for 30, no sparge, boil for 10 and no chill?  It should just be water prep/heat up (30 mins), mash (30), bring to boil (15), boil (10).  An hour and 25 minutes?  WTAF?

 

 

ETA:  Taking this a step further.  I have an electric system.  Let's say I draw my water and set it to preheat before I get home from work (I work from home, but you get the idea :) ).  Get home to strike temp water, dump the grains, mash for 30. Bring to a boil.  And let's be honest, chances are you don't *really* need to boil the wort right?  But let's say you just get it to a boil and call it good.  Shut it down, pitch in the morning.  That's an all-grain brew day in less than an hour.  My mind is melting...


Edited by JKor, 09 March 2017 - 11:39 AM.


#18 denny

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:07 PM

Playing devil's advocate here...

 

How long would your brew day be if you only mashed for 30, no sparge, boil for 10 and no chill?  It should just be water prep/heat up (30 mins), mash (30), bring to boil (15), boil (10).  An hour and 25 minutes?  WTAF?

 

 

ETA:  Taking this a step further.  I have an electric system.  Let's say I draw my water and set it to preheat before I get home from work (I work from home, but you get the idea :) ).  Get home to strike temp water, dump the grains, mash for 30. Bring to a boil.  And let's be honest, chances are you don't *really* need to boil the wort right?  But let's say you just get it to a boil and call it good.  Shut it down, pitch in the morning.  That's an all-grain brew day in less than an hour.  My mind is melting...

 

I've been communicating with a friend who has now done 3 batches of no boil IPA.  After sparging he brings the wort to 170 and does a hop stand.  Here's the latest...

 

"OK we had our monthly meeting last night and the RAW beer was very well received... people could not believe that it never was boiled. A few members are BJCP judges and one is a national ranked judge and they all found no off flavors and thought it was a good example of NEIPA. I lnow you love questioning brewing conventions, maybe you could work up a Experimental Brewing episode on the subject... I posted a witeup on Glen Ridge Homebrewers FB page"



#19 positiveContact

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

I've been communicating with a friend who has now done 3 batches of no boil IPA.  After sparging he brings the wort to 170 and does a hop stand.  Here's the latest...

 

"OK we had our monthly meeting last night and the RAW beer was very well received... people could not believe that it never was boiled. A few members are BJCP judges and one is a national ranked judge and they all found no off flavors and thought it was a good example of NEIPA. I lnow you love questioning brewing conventions, maybe you could work up a Experimental Brewing episode on the subject... I posted a witeup on Glen Ridge Homebrewers FB page"

 

so does not boiling it make it hazy?  not sure exactly what happens to proteins when you boil.



#20 3rd party JKor

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:28 PM

Soooo thirsty for 1hr beer...


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