20 replies to this topic

[Bklmt2000]

And to make things interesting, I'm starting with a blonde ale/lager, in the 5-6 SRM range. 

 

I've been reacquainting myself w/ Bru'n water/EZ water, and water chemistry in general, as I've posted about some recent batches where I'm now certain the pH (and the resulting flavors) weren't right.

 

Today's batch is the first one in a long while where I've added lactic to both the mash and sparge water, along with small mineral additions to both (calcium chloride and a bit of gypsum).

 

So far, things appear to be improving:  when I went out to the garage to start draining the first runnings off the mash, the whole garage smelled nice and malty.  Cool.

 

Took a taste of the runnings; nice and sweet.  Not overly sweet from too much chloride (which I've done in the past), but just a good malt flavor coming through.

 

So far, so good.

[Big Nake]

Do you use a meter so you know where you are? I do add my minerals to the strike water only but I add lactic acid to both strike and sparge water. When I was producing very dismal pale beers, I was not lowering the pH of my sparge water. I don't want to make a huge deal out of that but as soon as someone suggested that I lower the pH of the sparge water, everything improved. There was a time there where I was also adding my strike water to my mash and THEN adding lactic acid which I changed as well. If you know how much acid is required to get the mash into the kill zone and you can add that acid to the water as its heating, you're well on your way. I feel like there are other benefits from all of this too: The head formation and stability seems much better since I made these adjustments and I also feel like the color of my beers is staying true using this method. My pale beers are staying very pale as opposed to darkening slightly during the boil. Clarity seems better too but that could also be a product of the brewtan.

[positiveContact]

sounds good!  in reality I'd prefer to just do no sparge if I could fit it.  does your water have a good about of bicarb?

[Bklmt2000]

I still haven't futzed around with the pH meter; need to do that soon.

 

I'm back in the habit of adding lactic to the mash/sparge water before or just as its beginning to heat up, and for this batch, the minerals went into the water with the lactic.

 

But all other signs are pointing to an overall improvement.

sounds good!  in reality I'd prefer to just do no sparge if I could fit it.  does your water have a good about of bicarb?

 

Sadly yes, ~175 ppm.  But, it seems the lactic has done its work well; the runnings I tasted earlier had no bicarb harshness, that aspirin-y taste that I've come to recognize all too well.

[positiveContact]

Sadly yes, ~175 ppm.  But, it seems the lactic has done its work well; the runnings I tasted earlier had no bicarb harshness, that aspirin-y taste that I've come to recognize all too well.

 

I bet ER could tell you how much lactic per gallon of water to add to your sparge to neutralize that bicarb.  I think his water is similar or worse!

[Big Nake]

My bicarb is 138ppm. With all other things factored in, it takes about 4ml of lactic acid in 5 gallons of mash water for me to get my overall mash pH around 5.2. Then I use about 3 gallons for my sparge and about 2ml of acid gets my ordinarily 7.5 pH water down into the low 5s so that it cannot produce that harsh, grainy, husky character we're talking about. If you find yourself getting very snuggly with BNW and you really feel comfortable with it, I think you could use it as a tool without investing the $$ into a meter. Those who seem to like BNW say that it gets them VERY close on pH batch after batch which is great. For me personally, I always feel like there are variables with water, how the grain may lower pH, etc. that I prefer to have the meter tell me what's good on this particular batch. I agree wholeheartedly that these steps have led to some very pleasant improvements in my beer. The other big plus is that using these tools, I can make the softest Munich Helles with 100% filtered tap water. I used to keep gallons of distilled water around and that is no longer necessary.

[positiveContact]

Ken, how did you figure out how much to add?  trial and error (using your pH meter) or did you use a tool to predict how much lactic to add to your sparge water?

[Bklmt2000]

I think today's batch required ~5 ml lactic, split fairly evenly b/w the mash and sparge; BNW predicted a pH of right at 5.3, and visually, it appears this batch is in that ballpark.

 

Clear runnings, and i'm looking forward to seeing what kind of hot break i get (kettle is filling and being heated ATM).

[Bklmt2000]

Hot break starting to form in rather large flakes.  Second runnings are glass-clear.

[Poptop]

I rely on BNW to tell me my lactic additions and I don't have a meter or strips. Maybe I should think about that. I think my beer is okay, but maybe you's guys would think otherwise or pick out water bugs... I'd love to post my water report but I'm afraid of what I might here from you all

[Big Nake]

Ken, how did you figure out how much to add?  trial and error (using your pH meter) or did you use a tool to predict how much lactic to add to your sparge water?

I used BNW which got me into the zip code with some consistent variations. In that time there were some unexplained discrepancies (which could easily have been human error) and there were also some revelations about Rahr Pale Ale malt causing pH levels to drop lower than expected (Martin acknowledged this) but it was close enough to work with. So I might get to a mash pH of 5.45 (I'm making this up), add a little more acid to lower it and eventually my notes steered me towards what I know now. I also make a lot of the same recipes over and over so now it's just a part of the recipe and the meter is just a formality but I still like to get that feedback.

[HVB]

I used BNW which got me into the zip code with some consistent variations. In that time there were some unexplained discrepancies (which could easily have been human error) and there were also some revelations about Rahr Pale Ale malt causing pH levels to drop lower than expected (Martin acknowledged this) but it was close enough to work with. So I might get to a mash pH of 5.45 (I'm making this up), add a little more acid to lower it and eventually my notes steered me towards what I know now. I also make a lot of the same recipes over and over so now it's just a part of the recipe and the meter is just a formality but I still like to get that feedback.

I too had some issues with BNW and the predicted pH but mine seemed more drastic.  Like an expected pH of 5.3 and reality getting 5.75.  Still trying to determine what caused the issue.  Even last brew I was shooting for 5.3 and ended up around 5.21.  I guess that could be a human error with too much lactic and it was at least in the "ballpark." 

[neddles]

Its my understandimg that the distilled water pH of many malts (most significantly the basemalt) can vary widely from batch to batch and from the assumed numbers used by many of the calculators. I would guess this is the most common cause for pH inconsistancies we witness. Its been a while since I've seen anything significantly off but I still check pH on every batch.

I thought I remebered seeing a calculator out there that allowed you to enter the distilled water pH of your specific batch of malt. Sound familiar to anyone?

[mabrungard]

I too had some issues with BNW and the predicted pH but mine seemed more drastic.  Like an expected pH of 5.3 and reality getting 5.75.  Still trying to determine what caused the issue.  

 

Hmm? That level of discrepancy is uncommon. For the result to be much higher than the prediction, the water would have needed to had substantially more alkalinity than assumed in your water report...or there was an error in the inputs. Given that waters don't typically drastically increase their alkalinity, a close review of the inputs is suggested.

[Bklmt2000]

Well, this test batch is in the primary.  Wort looked and smelled really nice going into the primary.

 

Will know in a few weeks if this batch is a success or not, but all signs are promising.

[HVB]

Hmm? That level of discrepancy is uncommon. For the result to be much higher than the prediction, the water would have needed to had substantially more alkalinity than assumed in your water report...or there was an error in the inputs. Given that waters don't typically drastically increase their alkalinity, a close review of the inputs is suggested.

I agree and reviewed the water inputs and they had not been changed from previous batches and matched my Ward report.  I do plan to get another report from Ward soon.  I am on a well and my water has not changed much in the past but who knows.

 

ETA: Here is the link to the thread where I discussed the issue a bit more.  The big issue www.brews-bros.xyz/topic/117414-ph-oddity

Edited by drez77, 21 March 2017 - 12:02 PM.

[MyaCullen]

Hmm? That level of discrepancy is uncommon. For the result to be much higher than the prediction, the water would have needed to had substantially more alkalinity than assumed in your water report...or there was an error in the inputs. Given that waters don't typically drastically increase their alkalinity, a close review of the inputs is suggested.

the bicarbonate levels of Spokane water change throughout the year, our water is from an aquifer, really an undergound river, and it's alkalinity with it.

[Bklmt2000]

Bumping my own thread, cuz i can.

 

Today's batch, a straight-ahead Oktoberfest, was my second in a row where I used Bru'n water to adjust my mash and sparge water w/ lactic and minerals, in this case just calcium chloride.

 

Took a taste of the 1st runnings when i ran off the mash; nice and sweet.  Sweet!  Got a good hot break, and the wort smell going into the primary was heavenly.

 

A decanted starter of 34/70 is going to work in the primary.

 

Got high hopes for this batch, too.

[Big Nake]

I have found that in a beer where you want "malty" and it has some color to it like an Oktoberfest, Dunkel, Vienna, etc., I like to add a smidge of sulfate so that the finish isn't *too* soft. I'm referring to the finest possible edge where the beer has just a hint of crispness which brings out some balance, some refreshing character and makes you want to take another sip. I think I may have leaned too far towards chloride on some beers like this (and this may have been when I was playing with a percentage of distilled water so my sulfate was even lower than my current 27ppm from source water) and the finish of those beers was on the heavy/soft/thick side.

[Bklmt2000]

Good thing in my case is, my unadjusted water has ~65 ppm sulfate, so I'm expecting to get a bit of crispness, but i definitely needed some chloride to keep the sulfate from becoming overbearing.