19 replies to this topic

[Bklmt2000]

My local brewing water has ~26 ppm Ca and ~175 ppm CaCO3.

 

I use lactic to knock down the carbonate levels for my pale beers, which seems to work well.  I also add gypsum or calcium chloride as needed.

 

If the lactic is binding to the carbonate, thereby reducing alkalinity, does that mean that the calcium levels in the brewing liquor will rise (if the Ca is no longer bound to the carbonate) and aid in mash conversion?

 

And if so, by how much/how do i calculate this?

[positiveContact]

when you add lactic acid in bru'n water does the final Ca number go up?  I would think they would have made this part of the model.  I don't have bru'n water in front of me to check.

[Bklmt2000]

when you add lactic acid in bru'n water does the final Ca number go up?  I would think they would have made this part of the model.  I don't have bru'n water in front of me to check.

 

Unless i'm entering something into Bru'n water incorrectly, it appears the Ca levels stay the same regardless of what I change on the "Sparge Acidification" tab.

 

ETA:  it appears that the alkalinity does change, depending on the lactic additions i change in the mash acidifcation tab after all.

 

However, the amount of Ca in the final adjusted water profile is the same as where I started.  Puzzling.

Edited by Bklmt2000, 06 April 2017 - 06:36 AM.

[positiveContact]

Unless i'm entering something into Bru'n water incorrectly, it appears the Ca levels stay the same regardless of what I change on the "Sparge Acidification" tab.

 

ETA:  it appears that the alkalinity does change, depending on the lactic additions i change in the mash acidifcation tab after all.

 

However, the amount of Ca in the final adjusted water profile is the same as where I started.  Puzzling.

 

if martin doesn't respond here I think you might be able to e-mail him.  I haven't looked into what is happening chemically when you put lactic acid in your water.  I remain mostly blissfully ignorant beyond the level of "do this to bring pH down!"  works here

[Bklmt2000]

if martin doesn't respond here I think you might be able to e-mail him.  I haven't looked into what is happening chemically when you put lactic acid in your water.  I remain mostly blissfully ignorant beyond the level of "do this to bring pH down!"  works here

 

You and I both. 

 

The reason I even posed the question earlier is, my starting Ca levels are fairly low, and for my pale beers, knocking the CO3 down is a must.  However, for my dark beers, like my most recent stout, I actually forgot to add any calcium to the mash, and just used my tap water straight up (filtered, but no other additions).

 

Tasting the wort during runoff showed that I must've had good conversion (wort tasted malty and roasty), and visually, the beer is clear (when held up to a strong light).  Tastes good as poured.

 

I know the CO3 is being neutralized to some extent, either through reacting w/ lactic acid in a pale mash, or with the acidity of dark-roasted grains in a dark mash. 

 

So, this got me thinking that perhaps the Ca that was originally bound to the CO3 was somehow freed up to aid in mash conversion/yeast flocc'ing, etc.

 

I could be wrong.

[positiveContact]

I'm not sure how important having 50 ppm of Ca really is.

[denny]

I'm not sure how important having 50 ppm of Ca really is.

 

Not very.  Especially in lagers.  Martin explains that the main benefit of Ca is dropping the yeast and clarifying the beer.  There are other ways of doing that, especially with lagers.  But really, you should email him.  He's very responsive and then you'd get real info.

[Darterboy]

The Ca is freed up as soon as the CaCO3 is dissolved in water. It disassociates into its constituent ions Ca++ and CO3--. That's why the Ca number doesn't change with the acid addition.

[positiveContact]

The Ca is freed up as soon as the CaCO3 is dissolved in water. It disassociates into its constituent ions Ca++ and CO3--. That's why the Ca number doesn't change with the acid addition.

 

that splains it!

[Bklmt2000]

The Ca is freed up as soon as the CaCO3 is dissolved in water. It disassociates into its constituent ions Ca++ and CO3--. That's why the Ca number doesn't change with the acid addition.

 

that splains it!

 

Makes sense.  Now here's my next question:

 

if I start with X ppm of Ca, and Y ppm of CaCO3, then do i assume that at least some of, if not all of, the Ca that was previously bound to the CO3 is now available and is being used by the conversion enzymes in the mash?

 

And if that's the case, then how I do estimate how much Ca is available to be used in the mash?

 

I ask as my water is only low on calcium; the sodium, sulfate, and chloride levels are decent as is, but if the only really necessary addition I need to make is lactic, and that gets me more calcium freed up for the mash to use, I'm all for it.

[positiveContact]

Makes sense.  Now here's my next question:

 

if I start with X ppm of Ca, and Y ppm of CaCO3, then do i assume that at least some of, if not all of, the Ca that was previously bound to the CO3 is now available and is being used by the conversion enzymes in the mash?

 

And if that's the case, then how I do estimate how much Ca is available to be used in the mash?

 

I ask as my water is only low on calcium; the sodium, sulfate, and chloride levels are decent as is, but if the only really necessary addition I need to make is lactic, and that gets me more calcium freed up for the mash to use, I'm all for it.

 

I think that is the assumption.  do you really care though?  bru'n water should be handling all of this for you.

[Bklmt2000]

I think that is the assumption.  do you really care though?  bru'n water should be handling all of this for you.

 

It would be nice to know so I can better decide when/how to add minerals to my water.

 

Or i'm overthinking things. 

[positiveContact]

It would be nice to know so I can better decide when/how to add minerals to my water.

 

Or i'm overthinking things. 

 

I think the Ca from the CaCO3 is already accounted for in the spreadsheet.  there are 2 reasons to add minerals/acid in my opinion.  first to get your mash pH to the right place.  next is to adjust the final profile in the beer.  typically I add gypsum/CaCl to get the finished profile I want (Ca, sulfate, chloride) without pushing the pH "too low". if I were to go "too low" I might consider doing a small kettle addition of gypsum if I wanted the sulfate but I'd otherwise just leave it alone after the mash.  if I'm still not low enough I'll then add some lactic to finish the job.  beyond that I remain blissfully ignorant

Edited by Evil_Morty, 07 April 2017 - 08:51 AM.

[Bklmt2000]

I'm thinking an experiment is in order.

 

I've got a hop-forward, rather pale-colored wheat beer on the schedule, and I think it'd be worth a try to brew it with only lactic additions to get the pH where I want it, and see how it turns out.

[positiveContact]

I'm thinking an experiment is in order.

 

I've got a hop-forward, rather pale-colored wheat beer on the schedule, and I think it'd be worth a try to brew it with only lactic additions to get the pH where I want it, and see how it turns out.

 

what would the sulfate and chloride be if you did that?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 07 April 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[Bklmt2000]

Using just lactic for pH adjustment, my chloride would be ~31 ppm and sulfate would be ~63 ppm.

[positiveContact]

Using just lactic for pH adjustment, my chloride would be ~31 ppm and sulfate would be ~63 ppm.

 

that's within the range or reasonable.  I tend to like to push them up a little higher.  particularly the sulfate for a hoppy beer.  but that's just personal preference.

[Darterboy]

Unless it's lying at the bottom of the HLT as a solid precipitate; In other words, as long as the CaCO3 is in solution; all the Ca++ ions are free and available in the mash. Ca bound to CO3 (CaCO3) is a solid at brewing temperatures.

Edited by Darterboy, 07 April 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[mabrungard]

When a water report gives a value in "as CaCO3" units, it does not mean that there is a separate dose of calcium carbonate in the water. Its just reported that way in conformance with old reporting conventions. It doesn't really exist. 

 

Adding lactic acid to water with calcium and some form of carbonate will not alter the amount of calcium in the water. All the lactic acid is doing is neutralizing the carbonate or bicarbonate ion into CO2. 

[Bklmt2000]

Thanks Martin, much appreciated.