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Extremely light Lager w/ some Columbus?


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#21 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:38 AM

Yup 14 will be better. Make up for the lack of calcium with calcium chloride

#22 Poptop

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:40 AM

I like the Ca in that 50-60ppm range. It's supposed to provide nutrients for yeast health, promote clarity, etc. You can make that up with CaCl. Sulfate at 14 would work, IMO.


With such short notice to place an order, is there a common CaCL? Meaning does it come in the form of anything kitchen-wise etc? Canning ingredients for example?

#23 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:55 AM

Ball Pickle crisp is calcium chloride. Available in the canning section of the supermarket

#24 Poptop

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:00 AM

Thank you.

FYI to you and Ken, this is the first time I'm "attempting" to massage my water.

#25 HVB

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:07 AM

Ball Pickle crisp is calcium chloride. Available in the canning section of the supermarket

Same thing I use.

#26 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:31 AM

Thank you.

FYI to you and Ken, this is the first time I'm "attempting" to massage my water.

This one is extremely important to keep minerals low on. No hops or ale yeast flavors to hide flaws. I shoot for nothing that adds flavor other than malt. CaCl lends a nice softness to the mouthfeel.

#27 Big Nake

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:35 AM

Thank you.

FYI to you and Ken, this is the first time I'm "attempting" to massage my water.

I think that it's something that you eventually want to get comfortable with. It will not require night classes or any of that. It seems intimidating at first but once you know your own water (and your water is at a good starting point, IMO) and you know how you like to massage it for certain styles, it will make you confident that you have that part of brewing down. You just have to understand all of the players (Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4, Bicarb, CaCl, CaS04, lactic acid, etc) and how they all interact and then how to apply that to the style you're making. I agree with Chils... you want the water for this style to be "soft" and you have to make sure that the mash pH, sparge pH and kettle pH start and remain in a good spot. I struggled mightily with these gold lagers for years and many, many gallons of dreadful beer were made. But now I can make American Lagers, helles, pilsners, etc. as well as any other style.

#28 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:41 AM

I'm glad you posted before brewing this. I think 100ppm of SO4 would make this beer suck heavily.

#29 Big Nake

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:43 AM

I'm glad you posted before brewing this. I think 100ppm of SO4 would make this beer suck heavily.

I agree and I also take issue with some of the "stock" water profiles in BNW. I know that Martin put those together for ease of use but that YELLOW DRY profile with 100ppm of sulfate may be better for some sort of hoppy blonde ale or American Wheat as opposed to a helles or American lager.

#30 Big Nake

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:59 AM

I wanted to mention a couple of beers I recently made as a reference to how all of this stuff can fit together. One was a dark lager and I had Dos Equis Amber in mind when I put the recipe together. On a beer like that, I might add CaCl and CaS04 but it might lean towards chloride a bit. On this one I backed that off a little because Dos Equis Amber is a very soft beer with very little bite to it. That beer is cold, kegged and carbed but I haven't tasted it yet. If it's TOO soft, I might boil some water with a gram (or half gram) of CaSO4 and pour that in the keg to "back-sulfate" it. The other beer was a cream ale with Rahr Pale Ale malt, some amount of a more pedestrian malt like Patagonia 2-row, some CaraPils and then relatively low on the hops (maybe 20-22 IBUs) and I either added NO sulfate or very little which seemed like a good idea for the style. But then I fermented with S-04 which is a lower-attenuating yeast so with the lower hops, lower sulfate and lower-attenuating yeast, the beer could be overly malty and it may lack crispness. That beer is carbing now and it may be just fine but it also might require the back-sulfating treatment too.

#31 HVB

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:29 AM

I agree and I also take issue with some of the "stock" water profiles in BNW. I know that Martin put those together for ease of use but that YELLOW DRY profile with 100ppm of sulfate may be better for some sort of hoppy blonde ale or American Wheat as opposed to a helles or American lager.

I never really noticed because most times I just create my own and do not bother with the stock profiles but I see American Lager, what I would put this beer in, comes in at 37 for SO4. 



#32 positiveContact

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:40 AM

I never really noticed because most times I just create my own and do not bother with the stock profiles but I see American Lager, what I would put this beer in, comes in at 37 for SO4. 

 

agreed.  I just do what I think looks good for the style.



#33 Poptop

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:07 AM

I never really noticed because most times I just create my own and do not bother with the stock profiles but I see American Lager, what I would put this beer in, comes in at 37 for SO4.


I plug American Lager into the spreadsheet and most of my numbers are perfect at 50% distilled but the Calcium is still very low. Hmmmmmm.

#34 Big Nake

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:28 AM

I plug American Lager into the spreadsheet and most of my numbers are perfect at 50% distilled but the Calcium is still very low. Hmmmmmm.

That's okay. Boost it with CaCl, get to 50ppm or so and wash your hands. You totally got this.

#35 Poptop

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:39 AM

That's okay. Boost it with CaCl, get to 50ppm or so and wash your hands. You totally got this.


Yes Sir.

#36 HVB

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 05:54 PM

It's funny, a few years ago I would scoff at a beer like this but today I see it as a challenge to make. I could also see enjoying something like this on a hot day doing yard work.

#37 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:33 PM

It's funny, a few years ago I would scoff at a beer like this but today I see it as a challenge to make. I could also see enjoying something like this on a hot day doing yard work.

It's nice to have around for just that. Who cares if it's not a craft style. If you enjoy it then it's worth the effort of brewing it. Plus non-craft beer drinkers love being able to pull their own pints when you have them over or take a keg to a party. Just keep the line out of the sun. It was getting skunked in just a few minutes at my last party.



#38 Poptop

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:57 AM

Not sure why any handmade beer from 'we' the homebrewers would not be considered craft. I'd say it's absolutely craft considering the attention to detail and care put into its creation. It's going down on Sunday for me. This type of beer screams hot sun yard work and jumping in the pool.

#39 Big Nake

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:50 AM

Not sure why any handmade beer from 'we' the homebrewers would not be considered craft. I'd say it's absolutely craft considering the attention to detail and care put into its creation. It's going down on Sunday for me. This type of beer screams hot sun yard work and jumping in the pool.

You, Chils and I are all on the same wavelength here. If I make an "American Lager" with pilsner, flaked corn, noble hops, etc., I guarantee you that it's not tasting like Bud Light or something. A helles should be considered a "craft" beer or at the very least it should be a style that deserves some accolades... it's tough to make consistently well and it's delicious. Ever since I started brewing I have wanted to make some nice, smooth, refreshing gold lagers that were 5%, maybe 25 IBUs, SRM 5, etc. that I would have on tap for those who think that beer needs to be gold or for whoever. When my Coors Light-drinking sisters, friends or neighbors come over and drink one of these beers of mine, they love it. The weather part is exactly right too. Sure I'll have a dark lager or a pale ale in the summer but a clear, gold beer is classic. Here anyway. :D

#40 HVB

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:52 AM

You, Chils and I are all on the same wavelength here. If I make an "American Lager" with pilsner, flaked corn, noble hops, etc., I guarantee you that it's not tasting like Bud Light or something. A helles should be considered a "craft" beer or at the very least it should be a style that deserves some accolades... it's tough to make consistently well and it's delicious. Ever since I started brewing I have wanted to make some nice, smooth, refreshing gold lagers that were 5%, maybe 25 IBUs, SRM 5, etc. that I would have on tap for those who think that beer needs to be gold or for whoever. When my Coors Light-drinking sisters, friends or neighbors come over and drink one of these beers of mine, they love it. The weather part is exactly right too. Sure I'll have a dark lager or a pale ale in the summer but a clear, gold beer is classic. Here anyway. :D

Hey, I never said it was not craft I feel left out :)




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