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2124 (aka Ken's favorite yeast) xBmt


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#1 neddles

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:28 AM

Fermented at 48F and 72F. 

https://brulosophy.c...bohemian-lager/



#2 Steve Urquell

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:53 AM

I read that one. I've used 34/70 and 2124 on the same recipes and consider them to be similar enough to be interchangeable. Amazing that 72F wasn't different tho.



#3 HVB

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:53 AM

Amazing how homebrewing "truths" have fallen over the last few years.  I am not going to run out and ferment it at 72 but nice to know that it is a possibility.



#4 Beejus McReejus

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:55 AM

I just read this yesterday and was intrigued.  I've never made a lager before.  I used to have a fermentation fridge with a controller, but for whatever reason just never got around to it.  We've since done some remodels and I no longer have the fridge.  But I've been thinking about trying a lager with 34/70 and ferment at 70F and see what comes out.

 

For a light lager can I get away with just Pilsner malt and a little bit of Crystal for color, or do I need more in the mash?  And do I need to use a pilsner malt, or would a regular pale 2-row work?  I would lager the beer after fermentation in a fridge, but would have to ferment at room temp.



#5 Steve Urquell

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

I just read this yesterday and was intrigued.  I've never made a lager before.  I used to have a fermentation fridge with a controller, but for whatever reason just never got around to it.  We've since done some remodels and I no longer have the fridge.  But I've been thinking about trying a lager with 34/70 and ferment at 70F and see what comes out.

 

For a light lager can I get away with just Pilsner malt and a little bit of Crystal for color, or do I need more in the mash?  And do I need to use a pilsner malt, or would a regular pale 2-row work?  I would lager the beer after fermentation in a fridge, but would have to ferment at room temp.

You may need some acid malt for mash pH control. Do you have your source water specs?



#6 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

Interesting. But that particular strain is known to perform at cooler and warmer temps. I know that he mentioned other strains early in the text but it would be interesting to see if 830, 800, 2308, 2278, etc. would produce similar results. I have heard that 2124 will work nicely at 76° but I have never tried that. I just know that the character that I get from 2124 (especially in gold beers) is my definition of BEER HEAVEN. There is something about that strain of yeast that really does it for me.

#7 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:02 AM

I just read this yesterday and was intrigued.  I've never made a lager before.  I used to have a fermentation fridge with a controller, but for whatever reason just never got around to it.  We've since done some remodels and I no longer have the fridge.  But I've been thinking about trying a lager with 34/70 and ferment at 70F and see what comes out.
 
For a light lager can I get away with just Pilsner malt and a little bit of Crystal for color, or do I need more in the mash?  And do I need to use a pilsner malt, or would a regular pale 2-row work?  I would lager the beer after fermentation in a fridge, but would have to ferment at room temp.

As long as you keep your mash pH in the zone, you could use 2-row instead of pilsner if you choose. I might add something else in there like a pound of Munich 1 or some Vienna, Carafoam or CaraHell... something to keep it from getting boring. Also, when I ferment ales (especially in the summer), I place them in a big plastic tub filled with water and then I throw frozen water bottles in there to keep the temp in check. I can keep it in the 60-65° range easily and you could do that with some 2124 or 34/70 to make your lager and I think it would be great.

#8 Beejus McReejus

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:03 AM

You may need some acid malt for mash pH control. Do you have your source water specs?

 

Just what the city publishes offhand.  I was comparing it against some sites and it looks pretty off from what is desired in a light lager.  But I don't know how accurate that report is to my specific tap.  What is the most critical components I need to look at?  Hardness and PH?



#9 Steve Urquell

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:04 AM

 I just know that the character that I get from 2124 (especially in gold beers) is my definition of BEER HEAVEN. There is something about that strain of yeast that really does it for me.

It sticks out very distinctly and accentuates floral hop character. I hadn't used it in awhile so I wasn't desensitized to it. When I stuck my nose in my 1st glass of my Volksbier a week ago I was blown away by its character and started planning a series with it. I had forgotten how much I love it.



#10 Steve Urquell

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:07 AM

Just what the city publishes offhand.  I was comparing it against some sites and it looks pretty off from what is desired in a light lager.  But I don't know how accurate that report is to my specific tap.  What is the most critical components I need to look at?  Hardness and PH?

It's really easy to screw up a gold lager with mash pH. If you want to build a recipe around RO($.37/gallon at walmart) just input it in EZ water calculator and add enough calcium chloride to hit 50ppm of calcium and enough acid malt to hit 5.4 mash pH.



#11 Bklmt2000

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:23 AM

Anymore when I use 34/70 (the dry equivalent of 2124), I keep the wort temp as close to 60°F for the duration of the primary,

 

My personal opinion is, i get the lager character of a colder (say, 50°F) primary, but the timetable to turn the beer around is shorter.

 

I've had good success with this for a couple of years now, and it's another tool in the toolbox for summer lager brewing, when those of us who use swamp coolers are regularly swapping out frozen water bottles to maintain primary temps.

 

Another thing i noticed is that the rhino-fartiness that 34/70 can give off seems both less intense, and shorter in duration, when fermented at 60° vs. 50° or lower.



#12 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:26 AM

Just what the city publishes offhand.  I was comparing it against some sites and it looks pretty off from what is desired in a light lager.  But I don't know how accurate that report is to my specific tap.  What is the most critical components I need to look at?  Hardness and PH?

The big ones are calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and bicarbonate. For a light lager you really want soft water/low numbers. You want to try to get your mash pH in the 5.2 to 5.4 range and if you do a sparge you'll want to keep that in the low-to-mid 5s if possible. It turns out that the water I have (that I have cursed in the past) is actually quite good for beers like this (all of the numbers are low) except for the bicarbonate which is 138ppm. Bicarb makes it tricky to lower the pH so you have to neutralize it with something like acid malt or lactic acid. I have to add about 4ml of lactic acid to my 5 gallons of mash water and another 2ml to my 2.5 to 3 gallons of sparge water so that my pH lines up. Remember too that darker grains are more acidic than pale malts so a darker beer doesn't require quite as much acid. If you can get your numbers, I'll tell you what I would do. If you're unsure of the source of the numbers and it's that important to you, a Ward Labs analysis will really help.

#13 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:29 AM

It sticks out very distinctly and accentuates floral hop character. I hadn't used it in awhile so I wasn't desensitized to it. When I stuck my nose in my 1st glass of my Volksbier a week ago I was blown away by its character and started planning a series with it. I had forgotten how much I love it.

I get desensitized if I have multiple beers on tap that were fermented with 2124. If I get away from 2124 and have a bunch of other beers on tap and then get a 2124 on tap... the angels sing. You can use it for just about anything but in something like a helles, American premium or pilsner, it's outrageously good.

#14 Steve Urquell

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:41 AM

I get desensitized if I have multiple beers on tap that were fermented with 2124. If I get away from 2124 and have a bunch of other beers on tap and then get a 2124 on tap... the angels sing. You can use it for just about anything but in something like a helles, American premium or pilsner, it's outrageously good.

It's one of a few strains that are easy to spot. MJ M84is as distinctive but totally different. PU yeast sticks out to me and I don't like it very much until I'm desensitized to it. Almost has a Belgian quality to me.



#15 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:54 AM

It's one of a few strains that are easy to spot. MJ M84is as distinctive but totally different. PU yeast sticks out to me and I don't like it very much until I'm desensitized to it. Almost has a Belgian quality to me.

We were in Costa Rica and the big beer there is Imperial. It was very light and there was really no yeast character of any kind. It's like the yeast they used had no soul (as MtnBrewer would say) and I was disappointed. Later we found ourselves at a place and they had another beer called Pilsen. It was a gold beer, slightly more flavor and slightly more hops but the yeast was totally different... very much like a 2124 or similar. I took a sip and my wife looked at me and said, "Is it better than that other stuff?" and I said, "Oh wow, much better" and then she took a sip of hers, "Wow, you're right!" so it was Pilsen the rest of the way! :D Talk about beer geek-ness.

#16 Beejus McReejus

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:01 AM

The big ones are calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and bicarbonate. For a light lager you really want soft water/low numbers. You want to try to get your mash pH in the 5.2 to 5.4 range and if you do a sparge you'll want to keep that in the low-to-mid 5s if possible. It turns out that the water I have (that I have cursed in the past) is actually quite good for beers like this (all of the numbers are low) except for the bicarbonate which is 138ppm. Bicarb makes it tricky to lower the pH so you have to neutralize it with something like acid malt or lactic acid. I have to add about 4ml of lactic acid to my 5 gallons of mash water and another 2ml to my 2.5 to 3 gallons of sparge water so that my pH lines up. Remember too that darker grains are more acidic than pale malts so a darker beer doesn't require quite as much acid. If you can get your numbers, I'll tell you what I would do. If you're unsure of the source of the numbers and it's that important to you, a Ward Labs analysis will really help.

 

This is the most recent city report I can find.

 

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#17 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:09 AM

The only thing that really stands out as a "light lager" issue is the sulfate. Sulfate gives beer a crispness that is desired in something like a pale ale, amber ale, IPA, etc. but you would want it lower in a light lager. You could dilute the water with RO or distilled to get that number down. As a reference, I have 27ppm of sulfate in my water and I leave it right there and do not add any more gypsum (calcium sulfate) to the water. If you diluted 50% then your sulfate would be 40ppm but your calcium and chloride would also drop by half (22 and 15). If you added back about 3 grams of calcium chloride and got your calcium to around 51ppm and your chloride to about 66ppm then I think you'd have decent water for a light lager. That would also knock your bicarb down to 38ppm which would help with pH.

#18 denny

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

Just doing the second of back to back batches of German pils.  Both are 100% Mecca Grade Pelton (pils) malt.  First one was with 34/70, this one is 2124.  Both started at 48 for days, then up 5F per day til I hit 70. 



#19 positiveContact

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:53 PM

Just doing the second of back to back batches of German pils.  Both are 100% Mecca Grade Pelton (pils) malt.  First one was with 34/70, this one is 2124.  Both started at 48 for days, then up 5F per day til I hit 70. 

 

will make a nice comparison of the two yeasts.



#20 denny

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:55 PM

will make a nice comparison of the two yeasts.

 

and more important, 10 gal. of delicious German pils!  That Mecca Grade malt makes the best beers I've ever made!




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