Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Troubleshooting a Buddy's Beer


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Area Man

Area Man

    Comptroller of Geometry

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9139 posts
  • LocationAbilizzle

Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:44 PM

 We have a new brewery that started up here a couple months ago. Good bunch of guys, and they've put together a nice little place. Only problem is that their beers range from "meh" to "ok but something is wrong."

 

 In particular is a hoppy wheat they do. The brewer swears that on their small system it is great, but the problems arise when they brew it on their big system. They recently did a different beer on their big system, and it has the same characteristics. The darker beer (oatmeal stout) they do on the big system doesn't have the same off-flavor. It is overly thin and dry, though.

 

 The hoppy wheat, from what I can gather is mostly American 2 row, malted wheat, American hops, and S05, fresh in every batch. Fermentation starting at 65 and ramping to 68. To me it has a phenolic character that reminds me of drinking form a garden hose. It's overly dry, and the finish is almost as if you put a small piece of lime rind on your tongue. That's the only way I can describe it. It's not entirely unpleasant, but knowing the ingredients that went into it, something is definitely off.

 

 We've gone over his technique from crush to keg, and I can't nail down the problem. But I've never encountered this particular off-flavor, either. It's very peculiar. He says he's pulled apart everything and cleaned it thoroughly to rule out infection. He also said he's had the system inspected to make certain his temp controls are all calibrated.

 

 If his temps are all good, my vote is on some kind of infection. Anyone ever encountered this weird combination of flavors, and if so, what's the problem? Most off-flavors are pretty easy to diagnose, but this one has myself and a number of other brewers puzzled.

 

 

 

 



#2 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18036 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:00 AM

Do both systems use the same water?

#3 shaggaroo

shaggaroo

    Comptroller of Hot Flashes

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1959 posts
  • LocationMiddle of Nowhere, NY

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:20 AM

and is the phenolic taste like bandaids? do they sanitize with bleach?



#4 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53365 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:24 AM

What is the water like and how do they treat it? Overly dry suggests water with a lot of sulfate. Overly thin and dry also suggests a possible low mash temp too. Could anything on the new equipment have any sort of industrial oil or other kind of coating on it? I ran into that with a new stainless immersion chiller and it ruined a batch. Really hard to tell otherwise and I can't imagine how much more detective work it would take on a commercial system. I hope they find it.

#5 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68746 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:49 AM

and is the phenolic taste like bandaids? do they sanitize with bleach?

or even excess water treatment chlorine



#6 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 16 July 2017 - 09:12 AM

and is the phenolic taste like bandaids? do they sanitize with bleach?


Good theory.

If infection is a real possibility they should be sending samples to a lab to confirm.

#7 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53365 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:28 AM

How common is it for breweries to have their own lab? When I went on the New Glarus tour, there was a lab in the middle of the brewery where people were testing yeast samples and beer samples at various points in the process to make sure everything was on track. If a finished product ever ended up with a problem (never did get a straight answer when I asked if they have ever had a bad batch), they would be able to go back to the lab tracking and see where the problem occurred so they could pinpoint it and resolve it. Not sure how common that is but some type of lab analysis would be helpful especially against a sample from their small system.

#8 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:17 PM

How common is it for breweries to have their own lab? When I went on the New Glarus tour, there was a lab in the middle of the brewery where people were testing yeast samples and beer samples at various points in the process to make sure everything was on track. If a finished product ever ended up with a problem (never did get a straight answer when I asked if they have ever had a bad batch), they would be able to go back to the lab tracking and see where the problem occurred so they could pinpoint it and resolve it. Not sure how common that is but some type of lab analysis would be helpful especially against a sample from their small system.

 

For big breweries, fairly common.  For 80% of breweries, unheard of.



#9 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:18 PM

I said "a" lab not "their own" lab.  I've heard of breweries sending stuff to 3rd party labs before to get the bad news.



#10 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53365 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:08 PM

I said "a" lab not "their own" lab.  I've heard of breweries sending stuff to 3rd party labs before to get the bad news.

I got that. I was just wondering how many breweries take care of that in-house.

#11 Area Man

Area Man

    Comptroller of Geometry

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9139 posts
  • LocationAbilizzle

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:09 PM

and is the phenolic taste like bandaids? do they sanitize with bleach?

 

 Nope. Cleans and sanitizes with PBW, peracetic acid, etc. All professional protocols on that end. Cholorophenols were a likely suspect, but I don't see how it's possible. They filter their water, and our local supply isn't too highly chlorinated to begin with.

 

 A good friend and small scale, pro brewer is going to brew with him and check his process from beginning to end. It has us all stumped, and I'm really eager to know the root cause of the problem. My buddy's newest theory is that he may be cold crashing in the fermenter with the blowoff still in it, and he's sucking Starsan into the beer.

 

 We shall see. I'd love to hear other ideas.



#12 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68746 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:15 PM

 Nope. Cleans and sanitizes with PBW, peracetic acid, etc. All professional protocols on that end. Cholorophenols were a likely suspect, but I don't see how it's possible. They filter their water, and our local supply isn't too highly chlorinated to begin with.

 

 A good friend and small scale, pro brewer is going to brew with him and check his process from beginning to end. It has us all stumped, and I'm really eager to know the root cause of the problem. My buddy's newest theory is that he may be cold crashing in the fermenter with the blowoff still in it, and he's sucking Starsan into the beer.

 

 We shall see. I'd love to hear other ideas.

I've had beer  I accidentally contaminated with Iodaphore, and it tasted like described, quite phenolic



#13 Area Man

Area Man

    Comptroller of Geometry

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9139 posts
  • LocationAbilizzle

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:14 PM

I've had beer  I accidentally contaminated with Iodaphore, and it tasted like described, quite phenolic

 

Good to know!



#14 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:43 AM

I got that. I was just wondering how many breweries take care of that in-house.

 

def at really big places but I think only a pretty well established craft brewery would have their own lab.

 

 Nope. Cleans and sanitizes with PBW, peracetic acid, etc. All professional protocols on that end. Cholorophenols were a likely suspect, but I don't see how it's possible. They filter their water, and our local supply isn't too highly chlorinated to begin with.

 

 A good friend and small scale, pro brewer is going to brew with him and check his process from beginning to end. It has us all stumped, and I'm really eager to know the root cause of the problem. My buddy's newest theory is that he may be cold crashing in the fermenter with the blowoff still in it, and he's sucking Starsan into the beer.

 

 We shall see. I'd love to hear other ideas.

 

how much starsan are we talking?  and into how much beer?


Edited by Evil_Morty, 17 July 2017 - 03:43 AM.


#15 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:12 AM

def at really big places but I think only a pretty well established craft brewery would have their own lab.

 

 

how much starsan are we talking?  and into how much beer?

 

A couple of the big ones here have their own lab.  One small one, but that have a biologist co owner and make mainly barrel aged bug beers.  Most of the small and mid sized ones use Oregon Brew Lab, and independent lab here in town.  Who, BTW, does very reasonably priced testing for homebrewers.



#16 Area Man

Area Man

    Comptroller of Geometry

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9139 posts
  • LocationAbilizzle

Posted 04 August 2017 - 07:53 PM

  Got a text from my friend today who originally posited the "Starsan in the beer" theory saying that, sure enough, that was exactly the problem. He learned this while he was over there to help them with another issue. They were indeed sucking Starsan into it during cold crash. He tried a sample today and said it's actually decent.

 

Feckers didn't even so much as offer a "thank you."




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users