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Help identifying a beer and following through with a recipe (Marzen)


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#1 Glacies

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

Long time brewer, first time.... well not really. Anyway, trying not to turn this into a life story, but suffice to say I had the best beer of my life a few years ago and I've been desperately trying to find it again. I know it was a Marzen, and I know I had too much of it, but it was fresh as hell and didn't have that sticky sweetness to it that most of these other Octoberfest beers seem to pick up. I have bought every single Octoberfest I ever come across looking for this and only a few even approach what I had - one was Sierra Nevada Octoberfest and the other was maybe leinenkugels (sp?) This was a fairly yellow color clear beer, wheatey, very fresh, and certainly not a spicey mess. 

 

I've been digging around here and some other places and wondering if what I had was actually a Festbier - I think Mtn had mentioned it in an old post. Anyone have an idea?

 

I'm rebuilding my home brewery next month (been out of commission for years due to some moving) and I am going to mad-scientist this recipe if it kills me, but since Octoberfest ranges so much, I'm trying to identify a few elements to recreate before I go tweaking things. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

 

 



#2 Big Nake

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:32 AM

If you could provide any additional information about the beer you had, it would be a big help. With Oktoberfest/Marzen style-beers, German versions are typically very different (BETTER!) than an American version which tends to over-complicate things with crystal malt, ingredients that are not authentic, etc. That said, there are so many other variables that it would be impossible to know how the beer you enjoyed was put together. The yeast alone could push it in so many directions. When I make a festbier these days, I stick to simple. Half pilsner and half Munich 2 (or thereabouts), one hop addition of noble hops at the beginning of the boil that is enough to balance the beer out and a suitable German lager yeast. I do not like beers that finish sweet so mash temp and water composition come into play as well. I want it to finish with a balance... beers that finish sweet are a problem for me. The more details you can provide, the better. The Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest was on the darker side and the Leinie version (which I enjoy) is more pale... orangy-amber.

#3 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:33 AM

do you know if it was german or domestic?



#4 Glacies

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:37 AM

If you could provide any additional information about the beer you had, it would be a big help. With Oktoberfest/Marzen style-beers, German versions are typically very different (BETTER!) than an American version which tends to over-complicate things with crystal malt, ingredients that are not authentic, etc. That said, there are so many other variables that it would be impossible to know how the beer you enjoyed was put together. The yeast alone could push it in so many directions. When I make a festbier these days, I stick to simple. Half pilsner and half Munich 2 (or thereabouts), one hop addition of noble hops at the beginning of the boil that is enough to balance the beer out and a suitable German lager yeast. I do not like beers that finish sweet so mash temp and water composition come into play as well. I want it to finish with a balance... beers that finish sweet are a problem for me. The more details you can provide, the better.

 

Definitely German. At this point it's becoming a myth in my mind, but I'm just not finding anything that even touched what I remember. I'm going to try to stay away from american brands this fall and try only german, maybe it will be a better way for me to match what I had in my head.

 

At this point, does it sound more like a festbier than a marzen? Honestly, the difference between the german beers and the american versions are muddying the waters for me. 



#5 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:38 AM

If you could provide any additional information about the beer you had, it would be a big help. With Oktoberfest/Marzen style-beers, German versions are typically very different (BETTER!) than an American version which tends to over-complicate things with crystal malt, ingredients that are not authentic, etc. That said, there are so many other variables that it would be impossible to know how the beer you enjoyed was put together. The yeast alone could push it in so many directions. When I make a festbier these days, I stick to simple. Half pilsner and half Munich 2 (or thereabouts), one hop addition of noble hops at the beginning of the boil that is enough to balance the beer out and a suitable German lager yeast. I do not like beers that finish sweet so mash temp and water composition come into play as well. I want it to finish with a balance... beers that finish sweet are a problem for me. The more details you can provide, the better. The Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest was on the darker side and the Leinie version (which I enjoy) is more pale... orangy-amber.

 

if he's looking for something pretty light in color I suspect half munich 2 would be a little much.  probably would want to go with munich 1.  I also like to add a little carapils but nothing crazy.

 

I tend to think of festbier as helles with some munich in it.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 19 July 2017 - 11:43 AM.


#6 Glacies

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:47 AM

Some of the spaten clones are rather simple. In my head I was planning a multi-step decoction mash. 



#7 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:53 AM

Some of the spaten clones are rather simple. In my head I was planning a multi-step decoction mash. 

 

you can try it.  many people didn't feel it did much to the final product.  I don't know if it would mimic the effect but if you wanted more richness I'd add a small amount of caramunich I.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 19 July 2017 - 11:54 AM.


#8 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:59 AM

I don't know how similar this is but I've also tried boiling down first runnings - I never really liked the result there.

 

also, when doing the decoction I'd keep in mind you don't need to do it for the steps to help with conversion - you'd be doing it purely for some change in the wort you get from boiling some of the thick mash.



#9 Beejus McReejus

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:10 PM

Was this something you bought locally (wherever you were living at the time), or something someone brought you back directly from Germany?



#10 Big Nake

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:19 PM

Definitely German. At this point it's becoming a myth in my mind, but I'm just not finding anything that even touched what I remember. I'm going to try to stay away from american brands this fall and try only german, maybe it will be a better way for me to match what I had in my head.
 
At this point, does it sound more like a festbier than a marzen? Honestly, the difference between the german beers and the american versions are muddying the waters for me.

Some German breweries actually use those terms interchangeably... like PAULANER OKTOBERFEST/MARZEN. American breweries are notorious for butchering German styles for the most part. American recipes for German styles are typically too complex and use ingredients that don't belong in there. I can feel what you're going for... the beer is balanced and the hops are there to balance out the malt. The beer is not sweet or hoppy. With a simple and straightforward beer like that I might be looking to slightly bump the sulfate in the water to give it more crispness and dryness so that it doesn't come across as overly sweet. But you have to be careful there too because it can't be TOO dry.
 

if he's looking for something pretty light in color I suspect half munich 2 would be a little much.  probably would want to go with munich 1.  I also like to add a little carapils but nothing crazy.
 
I tend to think of festbier as helles with some munich in it.

I mentioned this in my "simple festbier" thread where the last time I went 50/50 (pils/munich 2) I got quite a bit more color from the Munich 2 than I envisioned so I might do something like 65/35 pils/munich2 instead. That recipe is coming up here soon with the Augustiner yeast.

Bottom line: more info is needed because a marzen made with 2124, 2206, 2308, 2352, etc. would be very different. VERY different and in a simple beer like that the yeast character could be all it takes to like or dislike the beer.

I have some Spaten Oktoberfest in the bar fridge. It's quite dark and it finishes a little sweet for me. Hofbrau Oktoberfest is really, really pale. It's delicious but it doesn't have a lot of color to it. I seem to remember Paulaner Oktoberfest/Marzen being perfect... balanced, a bit of amber color and something that made you want to take another sip glug. :D

#11 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:27 PM

I agree that yeast selection is going to be a major factor.



#12 Big Nake

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

I agree that yeast selection is going to be a major factor.

Yeah, if Glacies could remember the brand (say, Ayinger) than we might be able to find out what homebrewer-available yeast is closest and I think that would go a long way to getting a close match. The grain bill and hops in the beer would play a role but I feel like the yeast is objective #1.

#13 MyaCullen

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:40 PM

you can try it.  many people didn't feel it did much to the final product.  I don't know if it would mimic the effect but if you wanted more richness I'd add a small amount of caramunich I.

I'd go with melanoiden over cara munich



#14 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:41 PM

Yeah, if Glacies could remember the brand (say, Ayinger) than we might be able to find out what homebrewer-available yeast is closest and I think that would go a long way to getting a close match. The grain bill and hops in the beer would play a role but I feel like the yeast is objective #1.

 

right.  especially on a beer that will have minimal hops.  after that just get good quality continental malts and go for it!


I'd go with melanoiden over cara munich

 

as in aromatic?  I've tried it and I didn't think it did a whole lot for me.  I know I've heard it is supposed to mimic a decoction but I dunno about that.



#15 MyaCullen

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:48 PM

 


 

as in aromatic?  I've tried it and I didn't think it did a whole lot for me.  I know I've heard it is supposed to mimic a decoction but I dunno about that.

at least to me the Weyerman Melanoiden did the trick, the Aromatic (belgian) didn't 



#16 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:50 PM

at least to me the Weyerman Melanoiden did the trick, the Aromatic (belgian) didn't 

 

huh - I thought they were supposed to be equivalent.



#17 Big Nake

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:51 PM

So to just gather some of this: If it's German then the recipe is probably relatively simple. Pils and maybe Munich 1 or 2 depending on the color. Probably nothing else in the grist... used to use some Melanoidin, Aromatic, etc. but after speaking with some German brewers, it appears that they keep their recipes simpler than that. They may get more flavors from PROCESS but not ingredients. The hops will be German and possibly noble but also possibly Magnum or something like that. The big German lager yeasts would be 2308/838, 2206, the Augustiner yeast and there are some others... 833, 920, etc. 2308 is very distinct. It produces a malty, deep & full-flavored beer. The 2206 is less so. That plus his memory of the beer could be enough for a test batch and then adjustments could be made from there. A tough assignment for sure.

#18 Glacies

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:17 PM

So to just gather some of this: If it's German then the recipe is probably relatively simple. Pils and maybe Munich 1 or 2 depending on the color. Probably nothing else in the grist... used to use some Melanoidin, Aromatic, etc. but after speaking with some German brewers, it appears that they keep their recipes simpler than that. They may get more flavors from PROCESS but not ingredients. The hops will be German and possibly noble but also possibly Magnum or something like that. The big German lager yeasts would be 2308/838, 2206, the Augustiner yeast and there are some others... 833, 920, etc. 2308 is very distinct. It produces a malty, deep & full-flavored beer. The 2206 is less so. That plus his memory of the beer could be enough for a test batch and then adjustments could be made from there. A tough assignment for sure.

 

Fall is just around the corner, so I'm going to make sure I try a few commercial examples again. 



#19 positiveContact

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:22 PM

Fall is just around the corner, so I'm going to make sure I try a few commercial examples again. 

 

a key part is getting examples that have been well handled on their way to you.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 19 July 2017 - 01:23 PM.


#20 Bklmt2000

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:33 PM

One of the best Oktoberfests i've ever made was super simple:

 

5lb Weyermann Pils

5lb Weyermann Munich (I or II, doesn't really matter)

1lb of light Caramunich (1, I think it was)

 

Tettnanger for bittering to ~25-ish IBUs, and a little bit of Hallertau to 3-5 IBUs, with 5 min left in the boil

 

34/70 was the yeast (or 2124 if you prefer a liquid strain)

 

Single infusion mash, and I got plenty of maltiness from that.




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