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#21 JimInNJ

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:43 PM

What's important to know about pH is it affects every step of the process. It's not just about tannins or efficiency. Ultimately, it completely makes the beer taste different.

The only adjustments I make involve adding minerals to the strike water and a bit of acid to the sparge water. My goals with the mash are to get Calcium into the 50ppm - 100ppm range, and to balance Residual Alkalinity to SRM. For the sparge water I ignore minerals and add just enough Phosphoric Acid to break the buffering and get the pH to start dropping, usually to about 6.0 pH.Following this approach I can check pH at any point during the mash or sparge and always read right around 5.2 pH in anything from a Hefe to a Stout. (I do use about 25% distilled water in the Hefe.)For me it has only been about tannins and efficiency. What am I missing? How does pH effect other steps of the process? Is there more I can do, or am I doing enough to set the stage for the boil and the yeast to take care of themselves?- Jim

#22 denny

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:43 PM

No, no, no... Without reading his page, I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. From previous conversations, I believe he's talking about treating sparge water based on his experience with his soft water supply. pH affects the mash regardless of sparge method.

.I check and adjust the pH of my mash, but I don't treat or worry about the sparge. That takes care of itself.BTW, I used some 5.2 for the first time yesterday, just to see if it would make any difference. I'd have to say that in the brew session, it didn't. We'll see about the finished beer.

#23 dagomike

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 12:54 PM

The only adjustments I make involve adding minerals to the strike water and a bit of acid to the sparge water. My goals with the mash are to get Calcium into the 50ppm - 100ppm range, and to balance Residual Alkalinity to SRM. For the sparge water I ignore minerals and add just enough Phosphoric Acid to break the buffering and get the pH to start dropping, usually to about 6.0 pH.Following this approach I can check pH at any point during the mash or sparge and always read right around 5.2 pH in anything from a Hefe to a Stout. (I do use about 25% distilled water in the Hefe.)For me it has only been about tannins and efficiency. What am I missing? How does pH effect other steps of the process? Is there more I can do, or am I doing enough to set the stage for the boil and the yeast to take care of themselves?

Sounds like you're on the right track. pH affects not only the mash, but the boil, chill, fermentation, and perhaps most important, the final product. I'd test your finished beer pH and see where it's at, and then decide if you need to change anything. Generally if you're pH is right in your mash and sparge, it should be close to right down stream. Sometimes you need to tweak.

#24 japh

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:05 PM

Sounds like you're on the right track. pH affects not only the mash, but the boil, chill, fermentation, and perhaps most important, the final product. I'd test your finished beer pH and see where it's at, and then decide if you need to change anything. Generally if you're pH is right in your mash and sparge, it should be close to right down stream. Sometimes you need to tweak.

So, it's not just something AG brewers need to worry about, as is often thought.

#25 TelemarkBrew

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:09 PM

No, no, no... Without reading his page, I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. From previous conversations, I believe he's talking about treating sparge water based on his experience with his soft water supply. pH affects the mash regardless of sparge method.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I understand that the mash PH matters, and was just referring to the sparge water when using batch sparge techniques. I only wrote that as you mentioned in a previous post that the 5.2 only affects the mash PH not the sparge.

BTW, I used some 5.2 for the first time yesterday, just to see if it would make any difference. I'd have to say that in the brew session, it didn't. We'll see about the finished beer.

To clarify on this did you not make your standard adjustments to the mash water and only use the 5.2 yesterday and not see any differences, or did you use it in addition to your normal water adjustments?Thanks.

#26 denny

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:14 PM

To clarify on this did you not make your standard adjustments to the mash water and only use the 5.2 yesterday and not see any differences, or did you use it in addition to your normal water adjustments?Thanks.

I was making my Rye IPA recipe and I don't normally do any adjustments at all for it. I was just trying the 5.2 to see what would happen or if my pH would change from what it normally is. Not the best test, I know, but I intend to look into it further.

#27 dagomike

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:22 PM

So, it's not just something AG brewers need to worry about, as is often thought.

That's an interesting question. I've been doing a few extract batches as of late, and I found that the finished pH, at least with my water, is about spot on. So, I think if you're doing extract with "average" water, you're probably good.

#28 BrewerGeorge

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:23 PM

I use Palmer's spreadsheet to predict acid and salt additions, then usually test to make sure. So far, the test has been as predicted every time.

#29 dagomike

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 01:26 PM

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I understand that the mash PH matters, and was just referring to the sparge water when using batch sparge techniques. I only wrote that as you mentioned in a previous post that the 5.2 only affects the mash PH not the sparge.

In terms of tannins, I think if your mash pH is on, you're probably fine. I'd think you'd need some pretty screwy water to knock the pH up above 6.0 or whatever. Still though, I encourage a systemic approach.

#30 boo boo

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 03:06 PM

I test and adjust my pH in the mash and since I have been adding some latic acid to my sparge water ( I batch sparge )I have noticed a few extra points gain in my OG.I have given up on my municipal water and now use RO water with salts adjustments.

#31 denny

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:11 PM

I test and adjust my pH in the mash and since I have been adding some latic acid to my sparge water ( I batch sparge )I have noticed a few extra points gain in my OG.

That's great, but I'm hard pressed to find a correlation.....

#32 boo boo

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:14 PM

That's great, but I'm hard pressed to find a correlation.....

It was the only thing I changed out of my regular mashing regime, so I atributed it to the rise in gravity points.

#33 denny

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:38 PM

It was the only thing I changed out of my regular mashing regime, so I atributed it to the rise in gravity points.

Same bag of malt? Same recipe? I'm just trying to explain it to myself....

#34 Recklessdeck

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:03 PM

It's a band aid because it doesn't fully address the problem. :)

Ok, I understand that you don't think it fully addresses the problem, so do you think you could define what you see the problem as being? Are you saying it only affects mash Ph and therefore doesn't have any effect on the Ph of finished product? If so, have you tested this? If not, what is this problem it's not fully addressing?

#35 dagomike

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:15 PM

Ok, I understand that you don't think it fully addresses the problem, so do you think you could define what you see the problem as being? Are you saying it only affects mash Ph and therefore doesn't have any effect on the Ph of finished product? If so, have you tested this? If not, what is this problem it's not fully addressing?

Ok... I used it for a quite a while actually, then finally I got kicked in the ass by a brewer and started addressing pH and my beer improved. A while later, I gave it another go, and my mash was 5.6. Maybe it was the recipe and a different style world work better, but it wasn't working for me so I stuck the rest of the tub on the shelf to collect dust.My other issue is I believe pH needs to go further than that. So, it makes brewers complacent thinking they've got pH covered if they put a TB or whatever of this magic dust into their mash.My other issue is what the hell is this stuff? I've found favorable results by tweaking my water profile. I certainly can't do this when I'm putting in some super secret stuff. So, I say get some strips or borrow meter and know. It's easy enough to adjust. I'd suggest checking the pH of your a beer. Then brew it again, but this time come up with an addition of salts per Palmer's spreadsheet, cut it in half. Add half and test, and if needed, add the second half. See how the beer turns out. Then check the final pH. Brew it again, this time maybe acidify the sparge water, maybe adjust the mash pH. Check the final pH. Line all three up and do a blind tasting and see if you can taste the difference.

#36 Recklessdeck

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 09:27 PM

Ok... I used it for a quite a while actually, then finally I got kicked in the ass by a brewer and started addressing pH and my beer improved. A while later, I gave it another go, and my mash was 5.6. Maybe it was the recipe and a different style world work better, but it wasn't working for me so I stuck the rest of the tub on the shelf to collect dust.My other issue is I believe pH needs to go further than that. So, it makes brewers complacent thinking they've got pH covered if they put a TB or whatever of this magic dust into their mash.My other issue is what the hell is this stuff? I've found favorable results by tweaking my water profile. I certainly can't do this when I'm putting in some super secret stuff. So, I say get some strips or borrow meter and know. It's easy enough to adjust. I'd suggest checking the pH of your a beer. Then brew it again, but this time come up with an addition of salts per Palmer's spreadsheet, cut it in half. Add half and test, and if needed, add the second half. See how the beer turns out. Then check the final pH. Brew it again, this time maybe acidify the sparge water, maybe adjust the mash pH. Check the final pH. Line all three up and do a blind tasting and see if you can taste the difference.

Yeah I see what you are saying. It would be foolish to think you were covering all your bases just by using a magic product. As it is, I have to add about 50 ppm/gal of calcium just to my get the concentration within good brewing levels, and even then my Ph is rather high. I think what like being able to adjust salts independently from Ph, and then let the 5.2 do its thing, although I only need to use it in my lightest beers. If i had a Ph meter I'd probably do it your way, I hate the imprecision of the strips.But yeah, who understands that nonsense.

#37 boo boo

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 02:22 AM

Same bag of malt? Same recipe? I'm just trying to explain it to myself....

Same recipie for 2 brews using MO and the same recipie for the last 4 brews usingCanada Malting 2 row. The last recipie using the 2 row came from a different sack.I have been using RO water for the last 8 brews, but it wasn't until I acidified the spargethat I got the increase. It wasn't much, .005 sg, but thats enough for me to say wow.Given that I used the RO water for 2 previous brews and didn't get an increase, then I assumeit didn't matter regarding the increase.

#38 dagomike

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 05:07 AM

Yeah I see what you are saying. It would be foolish to think you were covering all your bases just by using a magic product. As it is, I have to add about 50 ppm/gal of calcium just to my get the concentration within good brewing levels, and even then my Ph is rather high. I think what like being able to adjust salts independently from Ph, and then let the 5.2 do its thing, although I only need to use it in my lightest beers. If i had a Ph meter I'd probably do it your way, I hate the imprecision of the strips.But yeah, who understands that nonsense.

Just to be clear I'm not completely knocking it. It's better than nothing. If your pH is right, it's going to make a good beer better, but it's not going to make a flawed beer better. If that makes sense. Best to get the focus on other big areas, like sanitation and fermentation, and use 5.2 as a "band aid" than to worry about pH but still have some process issues. $0.02.

#39 Hooperjetcar

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 06:56 AM

dagomike just (sort of) addressed the reason why I don't test or adjust ph. My water is drinkable out of the tap, it makes ok to good beer. Right now, I am trying to get better control of ferm temps, as I think that is my bigger problem right now. I am moving from big problems to little problems. I see ph as a little problem provided that you have a decent source of ok water.

Edited by Hooperjetcar, 31 March 2009 - 06:57 AM.


#40 CaptRon

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 07:45 AM

dagomike just (sort of) addressed the reason why I don't test or adjust ph. My water is drinkable out of the tap, it makes ok to good beer. Right now, I am trying to get better control of ferm temps, as I think that is my bigger problem right now. I am moving from big problems to little problems. I see ph as a little problem provided that you have a decent source of ok water.

Awesome.. I think this is what I am going to concentrate on, some kind of cabinet or something in my garage to control fermentation temps. Right now I struggle with maintaining temps and pretty soon it is going to be too warm for me. But if I built something to control the temp I think i would benefit from that more than ph. I can worry about that later. Thanks a lot everyone.. :)


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