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Hey Brauer... Please join me for DunkelTalk®


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 01:29 PM

Remember in my BeerCation thread where we were talking about some of the German and Czech dark lagers?  You mentioned Master Polotmavy which I had at U Vejvodu in Prague and then there was the delicious Augustiner Dunkel I tried in Munich.  Do you have any recipes that would get someone close to making one of these?  I did not look anywhere else for Dunkel recipes yet because it sounded as though many of you have had these beers and maybe had brewed one already.  I think my first concern would be how to get the beer that dark without the roastiness. Midnight Wheat comes to mind but I thought I would throw this out there for anyone with a good Dunkel recipe whether Czech or German. I have 2124, 830 and 2308 currently at my disposal.  Cheers. 



#2 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 01:46 PM

Try some of the new briess Golden Pils. I use about a 1/4oz of dehusked carafa III to get my alt to a nice deep amber + a 90 min boil. You could always go old school and do a decoction.

 

To be straight you're talking about a munich dunkel, right?



#3 positiveContact

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 01:56 PM

i think i made one once that was just munich malt and then a little bit of debittered black or something similar to get the color where I want it.  I then hopped with german magnum and hallertau (lightly).  i believe i used 2308 for this.



#4 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:04 PM

Try some of the new briess Golden Pils. I use about a 1/4oz of dehusked carafa III to get my alt to a nice deep amber + a 90 min boil. You could always go old school and do a decoction.

 

To be straight you're talking about a munich dunkel, right?

Well, I think the Augustiner I had would be a Munich Dunkel and the Czech one I had may or may not be a completely different style.  I will say that the Czech versions appeared to be darker to me while the German versions were a very dark-reddish color if you held them up to the light.  They were not hopped much, were very clean-tasting with no real roastiness and they were smooth and velvety.  The yeast strain might have been something like 2124 or 2308-ish.  I realize that there are a boatload of yeast strains that we don't have access to but the bottom line is that the yeast in these beers didn't steer the beer in any real direction.  These were delicious beers though and I have had a number of people ask me to try to formulate a recipe for these because many people haven't had the chance to try them and you don't see them over here very often.  A case is made for the homebrewer to try to make this style, for sure.



#5 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:11 PM

Taking a quick look around teh Googles, I found that Kai suggests Munich malt as the base for a Munich Dunkel (he does not say light or dark but I'm going with dark... 10L) along with some dehusked carafa I or II for the color.  He agreed that these beers do not have roastiness and they are not hopped much at all.  I wonder if I could get there by using Munich 10L, some amount of Carafa (1 to 1.5 ounces in 5 gallons) and then make up the rest of the color with midnight wheat.  I say that because even 2 ounces of carafa in 5 gallons comes across as a bit much to me.  Bitter with something clean around 5 to 5.5 AAU (25 IBU or so) and ferment with 2124, 2308 or maybe 2206.



#6 Steve Urquell

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:24 PM

Ken, I brewed this Polotmavy and it came out delicious. Scored high 30s BJCP(got dinged b/c the yeast threw a little acetaldehyde)

https://www.brewtoad...h-session-amber

 

I based it on 1/2 the recipe for U Fleku on the homebrewers assoc website as if it were mixed with a Svetly.

 

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#7 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:31 PM

Chils... that looks nice but nearly as dark as the versions I had over there.  I was actually just on Brewtoad and saw a M. Dunkel that had special roast, biscuit, roasted barley, caramunich and it looked very busy to me.

 

I was just putzing around and found that 9 lbs of Munich 10L, 1.5 ounces of Carafa and 2 ounces of MW would get me a 1.051 beer with an SRM of 17.  Then 5.5 AAU of a clean hop (I just picked Hallertau) got me to 24 IBUs and the range for Dunkel is 20 to 28 IBUs so I'm right in the middle.  I'm thinking that the recipe for a beer like this is straightforward.


Edited by KenLenard, 05 November 2013 - 03:32 PM.


#8 Steve Urquell

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

Chils... that looks nice but nearly as dark as the versions I had over there. I was actually just on Brewtoad and saw a M. Dunkel that had special roast, biscuit, roasted barley, caramunich and it looked very busy to me.I was just putzing around and found that 9 lbs of Munich 10L, 1.5 ounces of Carafa and 2 ounces of MW would get me a 1.051 beer with an SRM of 17. Then 5.5 AAU of a clean hop (I just picked Hallertau) got me to 24 IBUs and the range for Dunkel is 20 to 28 IBUs so I'm right in the middle. I'm thinking that the recipe for a beer like this is straightforward.

Here's the U Fleku recipe as brewed at the brewery. The direct link is dead but someone copy/pasted the recipe on HBT. It is a Cerne, but will give you an idea for which grains are used.50% Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt @ 1.8 °L30% Weyermann Munich I @ 6 °L15% Weyermann CaraMunich® II @ 45.5 °L5% Weyermann Carafa® II @ 45.5 °L (at sparge) Hop amts are for an unspecified batch size3.9 oz (110 g) Saaz @ 4.5% AA (10 minutes into the boil)3.9 oz (110 g) Saaz @ 4.5% AA (20 minutes into the boil)4.3 oz (122 g) Saaz @ 4.5% AA (115 minutes into the boil)O.G: 1.048+ //F.G: 1.012// 30 (?) SRM// 28 IBU

Edited by chils, 05 November 2013 - 03:41 PM.


#9 MtnBrewer

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:46 PM

5% Weyermann Carafa® II @ 45.5 °L (at sparge)

 

That's off by an order of magnitude.



#10 Steve Urquell

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:50 PM

That's off by an order of magnitude.

I agree. When I downscaled the recipe, I lowered it to 2% and the Caramunich to 8%. Found a good link: https://www.brewersa...bohemian-dunkel


Edited by chils, 05 November 2013 - 03:51 PM.


#11 MtnBrewer

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:51 PM

I agree. When I downscaled the recipe, I lowered it to 2%. Found a good link: https://www.brewersa...bohemian-dunkel

 

I meant the Lovibond rating.



#12 Steve Urquell

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:56 PM

I meant the Lovibond rating.

Makes me wonder if Dornbusch may have had a few on brewday? I can't attest to how roasty it is as I've never had it either.

 

Another good source on Czech styles: https://patto1ro.hom...nl/czecintr.htm


Edited by chils, 05 November 2013 - 03:56 PM.


#13 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:14 PM

When I saw that post by Kai (HBT) and he said to use Munich as the base malt, do you guys think that he meant ALL of the base malt?  If so, do you think he meant light (6L) or dark (10L)?  I haven't made a beer that was 97% Munich 10L before.



#14 Steve Urquell

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

When I saw that post by Kai (HBT) and he said to use Munich as the base malt, do you guys think that he meant ALL of the base malt?  If so, do you think he meant light (6L) or dark (10L)?  I haven't made a beer that was 97% Munich 10L before.

His recipe says Weyermann type II 8-10L. https://braukaiser.c...hp?title=Dunkel



#15 Big Nake

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:53 PM

His recipe says Weyermann type II 8-10L. https://braukaiser.c...hp?title=Dunkel

Chils, great link.  Thanks for finding it and posting it.  He even gives out the water numbers and it doesn't even look like I would need to dilute because my bicarb is already lower than the number he stated.  Looks like a very straightforward recipe and something that I would love to try.  Not sure that 2206 would be my first choice for this beer although I do like it.  I just picked up a bunch of ingredients but I didn't get Munich.  I think I have 7 or 8 pounds of Weyermann or Best Malz Munich 10 so I might have to supplement that with another base malt but I have everything else.  I think the Augustiner dunkel I tried was the best one I had.  The Hacker-Pschorr dark I had at an outdoor spot on our last night was really good as well.  The versions in Czech Republic were darker, for sure.



#16 Brauer

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:45 AM

Love this/these style(s).  I'm probably going to Germany in December, and I look forward to having a "few".  We were able to get Krusovice here for a couple years, but it seems to have disappeared.  Luckily, I can still get Ayinger easily.

 

I've made a variation of that Horst Dornbusch recipe, though I cut the Caramunich and Carafa down to 2.5% and used Munich I.  It makes a nice beer that is quite like a Czech Dunkel, but I'm just not entirely convinced the Caramunich really fits. I've also made Czech Dunkels without the Caramunich, which I believe I prefer.  I'd try Munich II (10L) for the Munich and in place of the Caramunich and that may get you a good example of a typical Czech Dunkel, instead of a U Fleku clone.  Or, maybe that could be a use for the Briess Dark Munich - in place of the Caramiunich.

 

German Dunkels I've made have had similar ratios of Munich and Pilsner, or all Munich, but without the late hops of the Czech style.  I FWH hop them with Hallertau, though, to get a bit of hop flavor.  Usually, for the Munich portion, I've used 2/3 7L and 1/3 10L Munich most times.  I prefer the all Munich version, which I think comes closer to the Augustiner Dunkel.  The Pilsner/Munich mix is probably closer to the Hofbrau and Spaten versions.

 

I always use Carafa Special II for color.  It seems to give the right flavor, to me.  Chocolate Wheat would probably work, too.  That's what I have used for Alts, and it's probably a little milder than Carafa.

 

OG of 1.048.

I have essentially Pilzen water from my tap. I add CaCl2 to a little over 50 ppm Ca++.  

I've mashed these at 149F, then 158F. About 20-30 minutes at 149F if it has a lot of Pilsner Malt or 40-50 minutes at 149F if it has a lot of Munich.

 

For yeast, I've used WLP830, WY2124, and WY2782, which were all fine and easy to use.

 

I still haven't tried making an all Munich II version, but that is probably the next Lager I'll make.


Edited by Brauer, 06 November 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#17 Brauer

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 03:56 AM

Did you ever settle on a recipe, Ken?



#18 Big Nake

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:44 AM

I've been in the middle of a couple of home projects but when I have a bit more time, I was thinking of doing something where I split the Munich malt between the light and dark (6L / 10L) and then adding something like 1.5 ounces of Carafa  and two ounces of Midnight wheat which would get me to SRM 17 and probably be closer to a German than a Czech.  Get the OG to about 1.052 or so.  Hop it with something like Hallertau to 24-25 IBU and ferment with either 2308 or 2124.

 

Maybe something like...

 

6 lbs Munich 10

3 lbs Munich 6 (both Best Malz)

1.5 oz Carafa

2 oz Midnight Wheat

1 oz Hallertau pellets 5.5%

 

Thoughts?



#19 Brauer

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 06:18 PM

Thoughts?

I'd use Carafa Special, not Carafa.

 

I'm curious to hear if the Chocolate Wheat has the right flavor.  It works well for an Alt, where all you want is color, but I'm a bit skeptical that it will have the right flavor for a Dunkel.



#20 Big Nake

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 06:52 AM

I'd use Carafa Special, not Carafa.

 

I'm curious to hear if the Chocolate Wheat has the right flavor.  It works well for an Alt, where all you want is color, but I'm a bit skeptical that it will have the right flavor for a Dunkel.

Okay, so what's the difference between Carafa and Carafa Special?  I'm not big on Carafa (I just don't use it very much) so I'm in the dark a little.  Cheers.




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