32 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Okay, so what's the difference between Carafa and Carafa Special?  I'm not big on Carafa (I just don't use it very much) so I'm in the dark a little.  Cheers.

 

the special is dehusked.

Edited by TheGuv, 12 November 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Big Nake]

the special is dehusked.

So it would come across as "smoother", I assume?  I will have to look into it and then possibly modify the recipe because if this stuff is smoother than regular carafa, I might use more of it.  As a side note, I'm not opposed to carafa but when I used it in the past or tasted other homebrewer's beers made with it, it came across as pretty aggressive to me.  I remember drinking someone else's beer that had 4 ounces of carafa and it was pretty roasty but it could have just been that the beer was young.  I can't remember how many ounces I used in Jamil's Vienna but when that beer was young, the carafa kind of jumped out at you but as the beer aged a little, the carafa just became part of the overall flavor and it was really nice. 

[positiveContact]

So it would come across as "smoother", I assume?  I will have to look into it and then possibly modify the recipe because if this stuff is smoother than regular carafa, I might use more of it.  As a side note, I'm not opposed to carafa but when I used it in the past or tasted other homebrewer's beers made with it, it came across as pretty aggressive to me.  I remember drinking someone else's beer that had 4 ounces of carafa and it was pretty roasty but it could have just been that the beer was young.  I can't remember how many ounces I used in Jamil's Vienna but when that beer was young, the carafa kind of jumped out at you but as the beer aged a little, the carafa just became part of the overall flavor and it was really nice. 

 

less harsh yes.  more color than anything.

[Brauer]

So it would come across as "smoother", I assume?  I will have to look into it and then possibly modify the recipe because if this stuff is smoother than regular carafa, I might use more of it.  As a side note, I'm not opposed to carafa but when I used it in the past or tasted other homebrewer's beers made with it, it came across as pretty aggressive to me.  I remember drinking someone else's beer that had 4 ounces of carafa and it was pretty roasty but it could have just been that the beer was young.  I can't remember how many ounces I used in Jamil's Vienna but when that beer was young, the carafa kind of jumped out at you but as the beer aged a little, the carafa just became part of the overall flavor and it was really nice. 

Carafa is essentially Chocolate Malt. It is roasty and coffee-like.  

 

Carafa Special is pretty mild, maintaining some of the smoother chocolate notes without the more acrid roasty flavors.  The one thing to consider is that Carafa Special I, II and III are both progressively darker and more roasty.  I use Carafa Special II because I think it has the flavor I am looking for in a Dunkel, but if you have no tolerance for subtle roast flavors, you could try Carafa Special I.

 

To my taste the 2 oz. of Carafa Special in Jamil's recipe wouldn't add anything I would consider roasty, but it adds a subtle flavor that fits the style. 

[Big Nake]

Carafa is essentially Chocolate Malt. It is roasty and coffee-like.  

 

Carafa Special is pretty mild, maintaining some of the smoother chocolate notes without the more acrid roasty flavors.  The one thing to consider is that Carafa Special I, II and III are both progressively darker and more roasty.  I use Carafa Special II because I think it has the flavor I am looking for in a Dunkel, but if you have no tolerance for subtle roast flavors, you could try Carafa Special I.

 

To my taste the 2 oz. of Carafa Special in Jamil's recipe wouldn't add anything I would consider roasty, but it adds a subtle flavor that fits the style. 

Okay, great description and enough to prompt me to place an order (for some other stuff as well) and pick up some Carafa Special.  As long as I will have all of the world's yeast strains at my fingertips... which yeast would you ideally use to make a German Dunkel?  I have 2124 currently fermenting and I have 2308 in an Activator that I could easily get ready as well.  Also, any comments on my recipe?  Would you care to let your mind wander and post what you think would be the best way to attack this style?  Think Augustiner dunkel and while you're at it, envision drinking it at that beautiful Augustiner bierhall just outside of the Marienplatz.    Cheers Brother.

Edited by KenLenard, 13 November 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[positiveContact]

if you care for me to look when i'm at home i can see what i did.  from what i remember:

 

-regular best malz munich as the base with just enough debittered/dehusked black malt to get the color where I wanted it.

-moderate mash temp (probably around 151F)

-i probably used a combo of magnum and hallertau for the hopping and kept the IBUs pretty low.  i can't remember if i did much beyond bittering in which case I may have just used one or the other since you wouldn't be able to tell.

-fermented on 2308

[Brauer]

Okay, great description and enough to prompt me to place an order (for some other stuff as well) and pick up some Carafa Special.  As long as I will have all of the world's yeast strains at my fingertips... which yeast would you ideally use to make a German Dunkel?  I have 2124 currently fermenting and I have 2308 in an Activator that I could easily get ready as well.  Also, any comments on my recipe?  Would you care to let your mind wander and post what you think would be the best way to attack this style?  Think Augustiner dunkel and while you're at it, envision drinking it at that beautiful Augustiner bierhall just outside of the Marienplatz.    Cheers Brother.

I've used 2124, 830 and 2782, which were all good.  Finished quick, clean and dropped clear easily.  I'm going to try 833/2487 next, because that seems an obvious choice if you've had Ayinger's Altbairisch Dunkel.  I'd use the Augustiner yeast if I had it.

 

The recipe look interesting.  I've been meaning to try something like it.  I've made one with the ratio of dark to light Munich inverted, 70% light and 30% dark Munich, which is the closest I've come to the richness of the Augustiner Dunkel.  Hallertau to 21 IBU, added FWH.  3.5 oz Carafa Special II.  OG 1.048 (I'm concerned that a higher OG all Munich Dunkel would taste like a Bock, not that that would be bad.)  Calcium to over 50 ppm with CaCl₂. Mash 149F for 30-40 minutes and 158F for 20-30 minutes. 

 

 

I know I've beaten this drum before, but I try to get these into the glass by ~6 weeks. My feeling is that a big part of why these taste so good in Munich is their freshness, which is highly prized in Germany.  What I recall, when I think about how these taste, is bright, fresh malt.

[positiveContact]

5 gallon recipe:

 

10 lbs munich malt

0.4 lbs debittered black

0.25 lbs carapils

 

mash at 153F

 

0.5 oz hallertau FWH

0.6 oz magnum for 60 mins

 

ferment on 2308

 

SRM: 21

OG: 1.055

IBU: 27

 

in my notes the only thing i would change would be the roastiness.  probably a different dark grain would help or maybe half debittered black and half midnight wheat.

[Big Nake]

I've used 2124, 830 and 2782, which were all good.  Finished quick, clean and dropped clear easily.  I'm going to try 833/2487 next, because that seems an obvious choice if you've had Ayinger's Altbairisch Dunkel.  I'd use the Augustiner yeast if I had it.

 

The recipe look interesting.  I've been meaning to try something like it.  I've made one with the ratio of dark to light Munich inverted, 70% light and 30% dark Munich, which is the closest I've come to the richness of the Augustiner Dunkel.  Hallertau to 21 IBU, added FWH.  3.5 oz Carafa Special II.  OG 1.048 (I'm concerned that a higher OG all Munich Dunkel would taste like a Bock, not that that would be bad.)  Calcium to over 50 ppm with CaCl₂. Mash 149F for 30-40 minutes and 158F for 20-30 minutes. 

 

 

I know I've beaten this drum before, but I try to get these into the glass by ~6 weeks. My feeling is that a big part of why these taste so good in Munich is their freshness, which is highly prized in Germany.  What I recall, when I think about how these taste, is bright, fresh malt.

Yum, this looks good.  So if you were making one today, how would you work the Munich?  All Munich 10?  A split?  The 2487 is interesting too.  Do we know if this is Augustiner's yeast?  I remember one of my LHBS's used to hang onto yeast that was past its prime and the one bud of mine that worked there would just let me take whatever I wanted and Hella-Bock was one of those.  But I don't think I ever used it.  I would order some 2487 and also some Carafa Special (possibly Munich too depending on what ratio to use).  I'm excited to make this one.

[Brauer]

Yum, this looks good. So if you were making one today, how would you work the Munich? All Munich 10? A split? The 2487 is interesting too. Do we know if this is Augustiner's yeast?

I really liked the light/dark Munich (7 & 10) split. I was able to convince myself that it could be close to what Augustiner uses. The next one I make will be all Munich 10, because I'm curious to taste it.2487 is supposed to be the Ayinger yeast. There's is my 2nd favorite from the big breweries. My buddy's favorite is Andech's, and there yeast might be one of the other seasonals.

[Brauer]

in my notes the only thing i would change would be the roastiness. probably a different dark grain would help or maybe half debittered black and half midnight wheat.

I have a higher tolerance of roast than a lot of people, but it does need to be subtle and smooth in this beer.I've never tried debittered black malt, but the Carafa Special tastes right, to me. I've used Chocolate Wheat in Alts, and it doesn't taste like much in low quantities, to me. I might get less astringency from roasted malts on my system, since I don't sparge these beers. So, I don't know if a recipe that is right for me is going to be right for someone else.

[positiveContact]

I have a higher tolerance of roast than a lot of people, but it does need to be subtle and smooth in this beer.I've never tried debittered black malt, but the Carafa Special tastes right, to me. I've used Chocolate Wheat in Alts, and it doesn't taste like much in low quantities, to me.I might get less astringency from roasted malts on my system, since I don't sparge these beers. So, I don't know if a recipe that is right for me is going to be right for someone else.

 

since i was using regular munich (not one of the darker munichs you guys are talking about) I had to use more roasted grain to adjust the color.  if i had used a darker munich the debittered black probably would have been fine at the lower percentage.  if i remember correctly the roast did fade into the background after a while and it was good but initially it was a little roastier than i would like.

[Big Nake]

There were more DUNKEL threads on the board than I thought. I posted a recipe that I plan to make soon over HERE. I read some good stuff on AHA and have 2206 up and running. Any Dunkel brewers who have some thought on crispness, mash temps, water, etc., let me know! Cheers.