33 replies to this topic

[johnpreuss]

I am in the process of buying a house right now, however the water is very hard - defined as tastes like crap if you dont' have a water softner.  What does the water softner do to my water and how is that going to affect my brewing at this new house?

 

HELP!

Edited by johnpreuss, 15 June 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[MyaCullen]

it replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, IIRC

[SchwanzBrewer]

Tasting like crap might not have as much to do with the hardness so much as how it's treated. Get a good under the sink water filter and it will taste great.

[Big Nake]

This is a good question because I never heard a definitive answer on whether water-softener-softened water was okay to use for brewing. I have heard people say that you must take the water from the source (before the softener) or use bottled water because the softened water has entirely too much sodium in it. At the same time I heard a number of people say that the sodium is used in the process of softening the water but sodium does not end up IN your water. JP, if you move into house that already has a softener, you could shoot a sample over to Ward Labs as well as a sample of the untreated water just to be able to see and compare.Hmm. A nice BYO article HERE seems to answer this question. Don't use softened water.

[HVB]

I have a friend who has a water softener and his water tested like this:

 

Ca - 1

Mg - 1

Na - 116

SO4 - 33

Cl - 109

 

Lots of tweaking needed to bring that down.

[neddles]

My water does not pass through a softener but it does go through a calcite filter in order to add TDS to my extremely low TDS water. The water out of the calcite filter is brew friendly enough with bicarb of 95 and low content of the other minerals. The reason I don't use that water is that I am not convinced of the consistency of output by the filter and I would be concerned about that in a home with a water softener as well.

[Big Nake]

My water does not pass through a softener but it does go through a calcite filter in order to add TDS to my extremely low TDS water. The water out of the calcite filter is brew friendly enough with bicarb of 95 and low content of the other minerals. The reason I don't use that water is that I am not convinced of the consistency of output by the filter and I would be concerned about that in a home with a water softener as well.

Good point. If nothing else, you want consistency in your water and you want to *KNOW* what levels of each ion are there so you know how to adjust for each style, etc. A moving target would make brewing so much less pleasant. JP, hundreds of years ago, brewery owners searched far and wide looking for the right water. This must be why Milwaukee, St. Louis and Boulder, CO were chosen as brewing sites. You need to run your family/marriage in the same fashion. Tell your wife that water is thicker than blood (or anything else) and that you need to go out on a quest in search of the best brewing water. When you finally end up in Bimbleton, Wymoing, tell your wife it was meant to be.

Edited by KenLenard, 16 June 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Darterboy]

 PLUS 

Edited by Darterboy, 16 June 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[neddles]

 PLUS 

Yeah, I've been very happy with using RO water. Seems like a pain in the ass to some people but starting from a clean slate you can make anything quite easily IME.

Edited by ettels4, 16 June 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[johnpreuss]

Tasting like crap might not have as much to do with the hardness so much as how it's treated. Get a good under the sink water filter and it will taste great.

No, I'm going to be out in the country. 160 foot deep well. I'm going to say no on the treatment. What about an RO filter system?

[Big Nake]

No, I'm going to be out in the country. 160 foot deep well. I'm going to say no on the treatment. What about an RO filter system?

They make home systems now that are much better than they used to be but you have to know the circumstances of the home RO system. You will waste a good amount of water. I can't remember the exact amount and I'm sure it varies based on system and condition of the system but it was something nutty like you use 3 gallons of source water to get 1 gallon of RO water. If that's wildy exaggerated, forgive me and correct me. You have to maintain the system or your RO water will not be as RO as you expect. Your numbers can naturally vary based on the consistency of the source water and the condition of your system... a possible moving target. I know Martin has said that he takes good care of his system and his RO water is great to brew with and my guess is that if you stay on top of it and know the system, it's easy to manage. I looked into this but it was years ago and my guess is that these things get better and better.

[SchwanzBrewer]

No, I'm going to be out in the country. 160 foot deep well. I'm going to say no on the treatment. What about an RO filter system?

 

A filter will still help take things out out of the water that might taste bad. Does it have a lot of Sulfur?

[MyaCullen]

A filter will still help take things out out of the water that might taste bad. Does it have a lot of Sulfur?

could be iron as well

 

bottom line get it tested, and at a minimum start with a two stage sediment and charcoal filter

[Big Nake]

I don't know where JP is moving but I know he's been in MN. When I go up to northern WI, I notice a sulphury, poopy flavor and aroma to the water. I assume this is well water but I have thought about what a nightmare it would be to brew with it. Although... I think you guys are correct, a good carbon block filter is supposed to remove organic flavor (among other things) so it would be interesting to send that water through a filter and see how it comes out on the other end. We bring an assload of bottled water for coffee, brushing your teeth, etc.

[Brauer]

I helped raise an antique schooner from a riverbed in southern NJ. In typical fashion, the tidal mud that I worked in all day reeked of sulfur. At the end of the day, the water coming out of the showers was even more sulfurous. The air in the shower felt like it would suffocate you. I can't imagine trying to brew with that water.Instead of removing calcium with a hardness filter, I think I would try preboiling the water, in an attempt to use the calcium to precipitate out the carbonate. That might also blow off some unpleasant organic odors, like sulfur.

[MyaCullen]

I helped raise an antique schooner from a riverbed in southern NJ. In typical fashion, the tidal mud that I worked in all day reeked of sulfur. At the end of the day, the water coming out of the showers was even more sulfurous. The air in the shower felt like it would suffocate you. I can't imagine trying to brew with that water.Instead of removing calcium with a hardness filter, I think I would try preboiling the water, in an attempt to use the calcium to precipitate out the carbonate. That might also blow off some unpleasant organic odors, like sulfur.

acid additions could help too

[neddles]

There's no practical way (I am aware of) to get iron out if that's what it has. Water varies so much from place to place. I live near where Ken vacations and my well water tastes phenomenal and is close to RO in mineral content save for a low level of iron. No poopy smell or taste.

 

Instead of removing calcium with a hardness filter, I think I would try preboiling the water, in an attempt to use the calcium to precipitate out the carbonate. That might also blow off some unpleasant organic odors, like sulfur.

This would probably work but it seems like using RO would be so much faster easier and more predictable.

 

I've said it before but I'll suggest it again. Next time Northern Brewer (or someone else) has a BOGO on better bottles pick up a couple of the 6 gallon ones. Fill them at the local grocery or walmart from their RO dispenser and have them around as extra fermentors. I keep 2 of them filled at all times so I am always ready to brew. If you are worried about the reliability of the RO water, you can get a cheap TDS meter (like $10-15 on amazon) and test it at the dispenser.

[johnpreuss]

ZOMG!

 

I'm going to have some Ken Lenard water nervous breakdowns if this is all the case.  We haven't closed on the house yet but we will in two weeks.  Honestly I haven't tasted the water straight from the well pre water softner.  It may be ok.  I'm just going off what the water at a friend's house about 10 miles away tastes like, and I don't know if he has a deep well or shallow.  I do think that I will try the two step sediment then carbon filter and send if off to ward labs to see where it lands. 

[johnpreuss]

We've been in the house now for 2 weeks.  The well water is hard, and has bit of an orange tinge to it.  Doesn't taste terrible but I will be adding a cabon filter to the line.  But I couldn't stand not brewing so I bought some RO water from a big box and cut the well water 60/40, RO being the 60.  I made a hoppy brown so between the roast and the heavy hopping I should be able to mask some of the hardness.  (Fingers Crossed) I added just a little Gypsum and CaCl just to make sure there was sufficient Ca for the yeasties.  I'm sure it didn't need it but I was shooting from the hip on this one. 

[MyaCullen]

get thee a Ward Labs test, ASAP!