18 replies to this topic

[HVB]

As mentioned in another thread, I plan to brew up a saison next week when I have some time off around the 4th of July.  I plan to use two yeast from The Yeast Bay and the profiles are:

 

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]Saison blend[/font]

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]A blend of two unique yeast strains isolated from beers that embody the saison style, this blend is a balance of the many characteristic saison flavors and aromas. One yeast strain is a good attenuator that produces a spicy and mildly tart and tangy beer with a full mouthfeel. The other yeast strain is also a good attenuator that produces a delightful ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest and imparts a long, dry and earthy finish to the beer. Together, they produce a dry but balanced beer with a unique flavor and aroma profile.[/font]

 

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]Saison/Brettanomyces Blend[/font]

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]This blend combines one of the Saccharomyces strains from the Saison Blend and two unique Brettanomyces isolates from our yeast library. The Saccharomyces yeast strain is a strong attenuator that produces a delightful ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest and imparts a long, dry and earthy finish to the beer. The Brettanomyces strains are both good attenuators that produce some fruity esters and mild funk, and add a bright character to the beer. The combination of these yeast produces a dry but balanced character with a delightful ester profile and just the right amount of funk. Approximately 58 billion cells/via[/font]

 

I am planning a simple malt bill of:

 

73% Pils

23% Valley Malt 2-row

5% Acid Malt

I thought about also adding in some flaked corn, maybe 1# for the 10g batch but not sure)

 

I am shooting for an og around 1.051 and plan to mash about 148 for at least 2 hours, I have a dr's appointment to go to and plan to have it mashing while I am gone.

 

For hops I plan to go with:

 

30 IBU of Apollo @ 90

2 oz of Nelson @ 5 or 0

2 oz Nelson @ whirlpool

4 oz nelson DH

 

Oh and water:

Ca – 64ppm

Mg- 3ppm

Na – 19ppm

SO4- 86ppm

Cl- 42ppm

 

I am looking for comments on both the grain bill, if the flaked corn will add anything and the hop bill.  I am not settled on Nelson's and would be up to blend them with something else or sub them out. 

 

Hit me with your thoughts, I have a good selection of hops and grain on hand so I should be able to accommodate a fair amount of tweaking.

 

 

[neddles]

Can't comment too much on the Nelsons or corn additions as I have tried neither. The rest of it looks pretty good to me. From the descriptions both yeasts sound very nice. Would this be a first run for you with these yeasts?

Edited by ettels4, 25 June 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[HVB]

Would this be a first run for you with these yeasts?

Yes, that is correct

[MtnBrewer]

Not sure about the Nelsons. The corn is not necessary, imo. These yeasts are going to attenuate like crazy (unless they get stuck ) and all the corn is going to do is dry it out further. Instead, you might consider adding some wheat or rye to accentuate the spiciness you'll get from the yeast.

[neddles]

Here's what I had in mind for 3 saisons.

 

Similar grain bill for all 3 saisons.

 

OG~1.053

75% MFB Pils

15% Flaked Wheat

10% MFB Vienna

 

All 3 bittered at 60 w/ Gr. Magnum to about 30 IBU (and less so for the 670 batch).

 

Saison 1 

Late and dry Santiam w/ 3711

 

Saison 2

Late and dry Motueka w/ 3711 or 565

 

Saison 3

YOU SUGGEST A HOP OR HOP BLEND TO GO WITH….WLP670 and secondaried for at least 4 months. Maybe dry hop at the end of secondary.

[BlKtRe]

You can look at my Applewood Smoked Sasion with Motueka. People are really digging this beer.

 

As far as your Brett Saison I encourage you to add something for the Brett and do a entirely different batch. When we do our barrel aged Brett beers we like to use Flake for some glucan. We will also add some Carapils and/or a tad higher percentage of a Crystal coupled with a high mash temp (usually around 156*) to get some complex sugars that the Sach will leave behind. We monitor our PH and use Acid Malt (amounts vary) to get into the PH range the Brett likes after primary fermentation. Gravity after the Sach primary around 1.010 although we have had good Brett qualities starting at 1.008. Might want to watch the PH the further down Sach takes the gravity. With that said, we have had great luck with Brett with even a 1 point PH drop. Lower than 3.5 then you might not get much Brett complexities. If you do decide to DH your Brett beer I wonder if doing it after the Brett fermentation. Id think any DH benefit after a long Brett ferment would be next to none. Although if you happen to have some undesired Lacto presence in there the AA from DH would kill that out most likely. 

Edited by BlKtRe, 25 June 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[HVB]

Not sure about the Nelsons. The corn is not necessary, imo. These yeasts are going to attenuate like crazy (unless they get stuck ) and all the corn is going to do is dry it out further. Instead, you might consider adding some wheat or rye to accentuate the spiciness you'll get from the yeast.

Rye was also on my mind.

 

You can look at my Applewood Smoked Sasion with Motueka. People are really digging this beer.

 

As far as your Brett Saison I encourage you to add something for the Brett and do a entirely different batch. When we do our barrel aged Brett beers we like to use Flake for some glucan. We will also add some Carapils and/or a tad higher percentage of a Crystal coupled with a high mash temp (usually around 156*) to get some complex sugars that the Sach will leave behind. We monitor our PH and use Acid Malt (amounts vary) to get into the PH range the Brett likes after primary fermentation. Gravity after the Sach primary around 1.010 although we have had good Brett qualities starting at 1.008. Might want to watch the PH the further down Sach takes the gravity. With that said, we have had great luck with Brett with even a 1 point PH drop. Lower than 3.5 then you might not get much Brett complexities. If you do decide to DH your Brett beer I wonder if doing it after the Brett fermentation. Id think any DH benefit after a long Brett ferment would be next to none. Although if you happen to have some undesired Lacto presence in there the AA from DH would kill that out most likely. 

I just picked up a bottles of Stones Smoked Saison that you based yours off of.  I need to give that a taste this weekend.  All good information and thoughts though my plan was to  DH to the brett beer after the brett has done its thing and before packaging.  I can see the reason behind brewing a separate beer for the brett to chew on, makes sense.  I will have to think if I want to just do a 5g batch of saison with the blend or maybe compare it to a whitel labs/wyeast strain.  I do not get to brew as often as I like so splitting a batch sounds good to me.

[HVB]

An input on hops.  Not just the Nelson but other suggestions of what works well for non-traditional saison hops

[neddles]

Whatever is in Tank 7, is it Amarillo?

[HVB]

Whatever is in Tank 7, is it Amarillo?

And Simcoe, that is where I got the corn idea from.

 

 

Boulavard Tank 7

 

[color=#000000;][font="verdana, sans-serif;"]Please forgive my delay in getting back to you. We brew fairly large batches of Tank 7 (as compared to a homebrew scale) so rather than providing an actual recipe, I'll share some malt percentages and hop information based on IBUs derived from each hop and at what time during the boil. Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense and I'd be happy to help some more.

Malts
Pale Malt 77.6%
Pre-gelatinized Corn Flakes 20%
Malted White Wheat 2.4%

We mash in at 63C and rest for 50 minutes. Heat up to 68C and rest for 25 minutes. Heat to 73C and rest for 15 minutes before mashing off at 75C.

Hops
Magnum 6.4 IBUs at 98C
Simcoe 7.1 IBUs at 15 minutes after beginning of boil
Amarillo 14.0 IBUs at 65 minutes after beginning of boil (or 5 minutes before end of boil)
Amarillo 9.6 IBUs in the whirlpool

We boil for 70 minutes so adjust these times accordingly based on the length of your boil. Target gravity at end of boil is 17.3 degrees Plato.

We cool the wort to 19C and pitch with our House Belgian Ale strain. We ferment at 21 C until we reach our final gravity of 2.2 degrees Plato.

Tank 7 is dry hopped with Amarillo at the rate of .078 kg per barrel two days out from filtration.

I hope you find this information useful. If you have any other questions feel free to contact me directly and I'd be happy to share any information I can. Happy brewing![/color][/font]

 

[color=#000000;][font="verdana, sans-serif;"]63=145 19c=66 21c = 70  98c=208[/color][/font]

[color=#000000;][font="verdana, sans-serif;"]68=154[/color][/font]

[color=#000000;][font="verdana, sans-serif;"]73=163[/color][/font]

[color=#000000;][font="verdana, sans-serif;"]75=167[/color][/font]

[neddles]

Damn you are on it here. That Tank 7 must be bottle conditioned with another yeast after filtration. There is always yeast on the bottom of the bottle. As an aside, do they use an available yeast strain for Tank 7 or is their yeast a totally different animal? Anyone know?

[armagh]

I made a saison with Nelsons last year.  Convinced me they do not belong in a saison and that I really don't like the hop, YMMV.

[Poptop]

Armagh, if you are referring to your Saison du Vin, I thought that it was very pleasing.  Totally different but pleasing all the same.

Tank 7 is, to me one of the best non traditional Saisons.  I also like to use Amarillo in mine.  A grain bill of Pils and a little Vienna.  Another great hop I've used along with 565 is Mosaic.

[HVB]

I made a saison with Nelsons last year.  Convinced me they do not belong in a saison and that I really don't like the hop, YMMV.

I have really enjoyed Nelson's in the beers I have made.  I would like to get my hands on some 'Merica by Prairie because that is an all Pils and Nelson saison.  One of my worries is that the nelson's will clash and I will have wasted them.

Armagh, if you are referring to your Saison du Vin, I thought that it was very pleasing.  Totally different but pleasing all the same.

Tank 7 is, to me one of the best non traditional Saisons.  I also like to use Amarillo in mine.  A grain bill of Pils and a little Vienna.  Another great hop I've used along with 565 is Mosaic.

Thoughts on Citra?  I have a few pounds of that laying around.

[Poptop]

I could absolutely see Citra on the back end.  After reading and reading and re reading FA, I made several with all Noble hops.  While always pretty enjoyable, I have come to appreciate NS, Mosaic and Amarillo.  I have also used French Aramis which (to me) is very subtle; floral. 

 

My next-next batch is going to be another Saison that will utilize Sezchuan Peppercorns, 565 and hops TBD.

 

Is it me or could Saisons and Farmhouse Ales in general be a whole separate category for discussions?

[Poptop]

Drezz baby, have you ever seen this article?  Definitely a fun read.  Brother Denny posted is somewhere, maybe here or NB etc...  I printed it out and added it to my references.  Gotta love Brother Beechum httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf

Edited by Steppedonapoptop, 25 June 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[HVB]

Drezz baby, have you ever seen this article?  Definitely a fun read.  Brother Denny posted is somewhere, maybe here or NB etc...  I printed it out and added it to my references.  Gotta love Brother Beechum httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf

Funny, I have both the hardcopy of Zymurgy that is in and a PDF of that on my work machine.  I guess this is a good time to re-read it.

[armagh]

Armagh, if you are referring to your Saison du Vin, I thought that it was very pleasing.  Totally different but pleasing all the same.

 

I wasn't.  I thought it worked well in the Saison du Vin as well.  I tried a different saison (I think it was a candisyrup.com recipe) and it came off...wrong.

[BlKtRe]

My Boulevard buddies wont even tell me what strain is used for Tank 7. Its a trade secret But without it good luck replicating it.