57 replies to this topic

[MtnBrewer]

A guy I work with is married to a German woman. They are planning to throw an Oktoberfest party this fall and want me to brew a beer for it. My first thought was OK no problem, I'll make an Oktoberfest. But then it dawned on me that they don't serve Oktoberfests at Oktoberfest. They have a different beer that is paler and somewhat less malty as I understand it. In the new BJCP guidelines they are calling this a Festbier so I'm going with that terminology to distinguish it from Oktoberfest/Marzen. So I asked her which beer they wanted me to brew and she said the Festbier. Problem is that I've never been to Oktoberfest and don't really have much of an idea what this beer is like (aside from paler & less malty), much less how to make one. So to those who have been to O'fest, can you describe that beer for me and give me a general idea of how to make it? My default approach is going to be to make something like a Helles Lager but maybe with an appreciable amount of Vienna malt. But if that's way off base, then hopefully somebody here can point me in the right direction.

[shaggaroo]

I've been to Oktoberfest a couple of times now and it seems to be that, Festbier is like a higher than normal alcohol Helles, at least by my palette.

[neddles]

No more experience than you have with this but I have heard that the beer served is paler than O'fest and like a maltier Helles. What you proposed seems to be along those lines.

[Big Nake]

I've been to Oktoberfest a couple of times now and it seems to be that, Festbier is like a higher than normal alcohol Helles, at least by my palette.

This is what I have heard as well. Many of the vids of Oktoberfest I see, people are drinking what looks like a helles. I assume it would depend on what tent you were in and what your options are but helles or a stronger version of a helles has taken over as the new Oktoberfest beer. Also, this is almost exclusively what I found when I went to biergartens in Munich last year... helles, helles, helles. It's everywhere. You had to know where to get something else... like go to an Ayinger place for their varieties, an Augustiner place for their great dunkel, etc. Crank up a 6.5% helles with pils, some Vienna and/or Munich and a good shot of noble hops for 60 minutes and use 2308 or 2124 and I think you would have a winner.

[MtnBrewer]

Spitballing a bit here...

 

[font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]FestBier

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):   12.00   Wort Size (Gal): 12.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 22.50
Anticipated OG:   1.056   Plato: 13.86
Anticipated SRM: 4.7
Anticipated IBU:   24.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90   Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 1.15   Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 13.73   Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:   1.049   SG   12.19  Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name   Origin   Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 62.2   14.00 lbs. Pilsener   Germany   1.038   2
 26.7 6.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany   1.037   3
  4.4 1.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany   1.037   8
  6.7 1.50 lbs. Carahell Malt (Weyermann) Germany   1.035 10

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name   Form   Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  3.00 oz.   Spalter Spalt (ref) Whole   4.50  20.7  60 min.
  1.00 oz.   Hallertauer Mittelfruh (ref)   Whole   4.50 4.2  20 min.
  1.00 oz.   Saaz (ref)   Whole   4.00 0.0  0 min.


Yeast
-----

UCCS 5923 Augustiner Lager


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 22.50
Water Qts: 32.25 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:   8.06 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.43 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0  Time: 0
Sparge Temp :   0  Time: 0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 9.86 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.[/font]




 

[Big Nake]

I could see that. Even move the 20 to a FWH for that extra German-ness. 5.5%, SRM of about 5 and IBUs around 25 is right in the kill zone, I would think. Mine was very close although my ABV was probably a smidge lower. That's the same yeast that you sent me a sample of, correct? Very nice yeast and when you're done with the Festbier and you decide to make an exact clone of Augustiner's Dunkel... please do post your recipe. The Augustiner Dunkel and possibly a Hacker Pschorr dunkel were two of THE standout beers I sampled in Munich.

Edited by KenLenard, 25 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

Even move the 20 to a FWH for that extra German-ness.

Ah, that's a good idea. Done. What about the CaraHell? Too much?  

That's the same yeast that you sent me a sample of, correct?

Correct. I could also go with 2206 or 2308 but I figure Augustiner has got to be pretty damned authentic. We'll see about that Dunkel.

[shaggaroo]

I could see that. Even move the 20 to a FWH for that extra German-ness. 5.5%, SRM of about 5 and IBUs around 25 is right in the kill zone, I would think. Mine was very close although my ABV was probably a smidge lower. That's the same yeast that you sent me a sample of, correct? Very nice yeast and when you're done with the Festbier and you decide to make an exact clone of Augustiner's Dunkel... please do post your recipe. The Augustiner Dunkel and possibly a Hacker Pschorr dunkel were two of THE standout beers I sampled in Munich.

Best bier I had in München was a small-batch Dunkelweizen from Hacker-Pschorr.

[Big Nake]

Ah, that's a good idea. Done. What about the CaraHell? Too much? Correct. I could also go with 2206 or 2308 but I figure Augustiner has got to be pretty damned authentic. We'll see about that Dunkel.

I think I have used 4-6 ounces of CaraHell in a 5 gallon batch but that doesn't mean you have too much. CaraHell is supposed to make a beer fuller and maltier so it seems appropriate here. When I first heard the term CARAHELL, I thought, "Perfect for a HELLES!". I don't know what 1.5 pounds in 12 gallons will do but it occurs to me that a helles is supposed to be malty and somewhat dry in the finish at the same time... so maybe lower your mash temp a smidge? 150°?

[Big Nake]

Best bier I had in München was a small-batch Dunkelweizen from Hacker-Pschorr.

Sooo many great beers over there but what got my attention is that what you might consider their standard, go-to beer (pretty much helles made by every brewery there) is way, way better than what most Ameerican swill drinkers would consider their go-to beer. The other styles I had were spectacular in Munich and Prague as well.

[MyaCullen]

Sooo many great beers over there but what got my attention is that what you might consider their standard, go-to beer (pretty much helles made by every brewery there) is way, way better than what most Ameerican swill drinkers would consider their go-to beer. The other styles I had were spectacular in Munich and Prague as well.

were doing our best to change that, prohibition and WW2 really screwed us over though

[Big Nake]

were doing our best to change that, prohibition and WW2 really screwed us over though

Agreed. We're lucky that we're seeing this craft beer revolution or whatever you want to call it. I mentioned in my BEERCATION thread that a couple days after I got back from Europe I went to the grocery store and saw a guy coming out of the liquor department with two cases of Bud Light and I just can't tell you how bizarre that looked to me. I short-circuited for a second and then I was like, Oh yeah... and then I came back to reality. We can try to get people here to see the better choices they have in beer and the beers they have in the Czech Republic, Austria and Germany are a good place to start. I can't see anyone here having an issue with a fresh helles at a Munich biergarten.

[MyaCullen]

Agreed. We're lucky that we're seeing this craft beer revolution or whatever you want to call it. I mentioned in my BEERCATION thread that a couple days after I got back from Europe I went to the grocery store and saw a guy coming out of the liquor department with two cases of Bud Light and I just can't tell you how bizarre that looked to me. I short-circuited for a second and then I was like, Oh yeah... and then I came back to reality. We can try to get people here to see the better choices they have in beer and the beers they have in the Czech Republic, Austria and Germany are a good place to start. I can't see anyone here having an issue with a fresh helles at a Munich biergarten.

the BMCers sure swilled down my Dort a couple weeks back

[Big Nake]

the BMCers sure swilled down my Dort a couple weeks back

HA! See? Dort 'em in the right direction... helles yeah! The funny part is that I know some swill drinkers that come to my house, drink my beer and say that it's good. But when I go to their house, guarantee that they'll have Bud Light or something. I'm not trying to convert anyone necessarily but I have a hard time with people swilling that stuff. My Dad is now officially a low-end, bottom-feeding swill drinker. Very often he'll have Busch Light or Miller High Life Light. Ugh. My nephew was at my Dad's house awhile back and left behind three bottles of Third Shift Amber Lager (which I have never had). I had one and I told my Dad to have one. He said, "Wow, what a nice beer. Great color and look at the head on that sucker!". I thought it was nice... very much in my tastebud wheelhouse. After he drank it, he went right back to Miller High Life Light. DOH! MTN: Sorry to hijack the thread. Make the helles, fashion an Augustiner Dunkel recipe and let us know how they came out. If you make a nice Dunkel, share it and I will make it with whatever lager yeast... 2308 probably.

Edited by KenLenard, 25 June 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I don't know why, but these recipes and threads have really got me amped to brew some german lagers.

[HVB]

I don't know why, but these recipes and threads have really got me amped to brew some german lagers.

I feel the same way.  I still have to brew the Oktoberfest hybrid that TheGuv and I came up with but I still really want to brew a Helles an the beer in this thread sounds really good.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I was gonna do a traditional czech pils 2 brews from now, but I think I'll brew this festbier instead. It sounds really tasty.

[Big Nake]

Again, welcome to what I dream about. I was having this conversation with Ettels and I found a great BYO Helles article HERE and it occurs to me after reading the details that making a helles is a tough balancing act. Quite possibly one of the toughest styles for a homebrewer to make and the article mentions that. Deep, malty character, good mouthfeel, hops at the beginning of the boil and possibly a small amount later, a relatively crisp & dry finish, etc. The beer is meant to be simple but still full & satisfying at the same time. A tall order for a homebrewer and one where you might use every tool in your toolbox from choosing the right malt & hops, adjusting water just so, looking at pH, proper primary temps, etc. This is all assuming that Greg's vision here is actually a helles and not a different Oktoberfest lager that the German breweries make. I think I'll make another one of these with the 2124 that just finished fermenting my Oktobefest lager. Cheers peeps.

[MtnBrewer]

Czech pils is good too. I did a Victory Kellerpils back in the spring that I'm drinking now. Perfect for the summertime.

[MtnBrewer]

Again, welcome to what I dream about. I was having this conversation with Ettels and I found a great BYO Helles article HERE and it occurs to me after reading the details that making a helles is a tough balancing act. Quite possibly one of the toughest styles for a homebrewer to make and the article mentions that. Deep, malty character, good mouthfeel, hops at the beginning of the boil and possibly a small amount later, a relatively crisp & dry finish, etc. The beer is meant to be simple but still full & satisfying at the same time. A tall order for a homebrewer and one where you might use every tool in your toolbox from choosing the right malt & hops, adjusting water just so, looking at pH, proper primary temps, etc. This is all assuming that Greg's vision here is actually a helles and not a different Oktoberfest lager that the German breweries make. I think I'll make another one of these with the 2124 that just finished fermenting my Oktobefest lager. Cheers peeps.

I think my vision is that it's somewhere in between the two but it might be that the festbier served at O'fest is nothing more than a helles. If you're interested in the helles style, the one from the Classic Beer Styles series is actually pretty good. It's written by Dornbusch who I figure is pretty authoritative. One thing I was surprised about was the late hopping he recommended. He adds an aroma charge at knockout and another 15 minutes into the cooldown. These are nobles though so there is no overwhelming hoppy aroma. You're absolutely right that it's a tough style to brew well. Pretty much nothing to hide behind.