46 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

Last year I chased this off flavor around in my alts and kolsch. It was so common in my beers that it became "Rich Character" (RC) as dubbed by my competition team. This year using different equipment it disappeared. That in itself is anecdotal since I've changed so many things.

 

Then, last week at my competition team meeting one of my friends on the team brought a schwartzbier that had the RC in it. It was unmistakable. That got me to thinking again where it was coming from. I certainly don't want my friend to beat his head against the wall like I did. He's been making lagers as a starter beer for a big baltic porter. The porter is phenomenal and one of the local breweries wants to brew it. So my friend is making sure that he can reproduce it.

 

What I'm thinking is that this isn't a contamination issue. I'm really careful and the RC didn't show up in hefe's or saison, just alts and kolsch. I think it's a fermentation byproduct associated with most likely temperature. I think I've smelled the RC in starters with 1007 before that were done at room temp, but I can't be certain.

 

So, I'm going to conduct a test and make two starters from the same wort. I'm going to put both on stir plates, but one will be in my fermentation chamber, the other in the kitchen at room temp (74*).

 

If I get the RC in both starters I'll know that either temperature isn't a factor OR that my ferm champ temp control isn't as good as I thought. I'll have to repeat the experiment to be sure. I'm also assuming that it's in the starter and carrying over to the beer.

 

Other sources - over pitching, under pitching, contamination, too high concentration of starsan?, PBW or soap residue, water chemistry, O2 levels at pitching

 

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from anyone here that makes Alts, Kolsch, and Lagers to see if you all get any of the RC in your starters.

 

My starter procedure...

 

I use yeastcalculator.com to figure out how much DME I need. Usually it's about 7ish grams in 2L of water getting the OG to 1.037. I use my tap water for starters. Usually untreated (by me). I boil in a pot and cool down with an IC, then put it in the fridge until it gets to about 70 deg. Dump into a sanitized Erlenmeyer flask and add the yeast and put it on the stir plate for 12-24 hours. I usually pitch right into the wort rather than decanting the starter.

 

Cheers.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Smell like acetaldehyde. Incomplete fermentation caused by to short yeast contact time or under pitching.

[Big Nake]

BJPC says too short of contact or possible low O2 levels. Rich, do you d-rest (which takes care of flavors other than dicaetyl too) or do you rush these lagers out of primary?

[SchwanzBrewer]

I've hardly ever rushed a beer in 6 years of brewing. Normal contact time for me is 2-3 weeks. I have no idea how fast my friend made his lager, but I doubt it was very fast.

 

Underpitching - no way. Hopefully Santa will bring me some equipment to prove this, but all my beers and my friends beer were made with a starter.

 

O2 levels - I'll ask what my friend did, but I used to shake the bejesus out of my fermenters for 5 minutes. Started using straight O2 this year and the RC disappeared. Anecdotal at best because I changed so many other things like using a SS conical and a fermentation refrigerator with direct fermentation temperature control rather than my homemade chamber that is just air temp controlled.

 

D-rest - always for every beer. Friend - I dunno. I start raising the temp after about 4-5 days for alts/kolsch to 60 and ultimately only about 63 for a couple days and then slowly drop it down. I've only made 1 lager, but not on the new system, but I would use a similar schedule.

 

Another thing it could be is temperature shock. I'll have to be careful to avoid being more than 5 degrees apart in temp when pitching the yeast into the starters.

 

Also, please smell your starters for me and let me know if you do happen to smell something like RC and try to take down environmental data as well, how you made your starter, ect.

[positiveContact]

i've only ever experienced this with alt yeast - never with lager yeast as far as I know.  take it for what it's worth.

[SchwanzBrewer]

i've only ever experienced this with alt yeast - never with lager yeast as far as I know.  take it for what it's worth.

 

I'm at N=2 with lager yeasts. My first lager had the RC character. My friend has made 4 lagers now. A vienna that did not have it, a baltic porter that did not have it, a schwartzbier that did and a baltic that might. So not many data points.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I've hardly ever rushed a beer in 6 years of brewing. Normal contact time for me is 2-3 weeks. I have no idea how fast my friend made his lager, but I doubt it was very fast.

 

Underpitching - no way. Hopefully Santa will bring me some equipment to prove this, but all my beers and my friends beer were made with a starter.

 

O2 levels - I'll ask what my friend did, but I used to shake the bejesus out of my fermenters for 5 minutes. Started using straight O2 this year and the RC disappeared. Anecdotal at best because I changed so many other things like using a SS conical and a fermentation refrigerator with direct fermentation temperature control rather than my homemade chamber that is just air temp controlled.

 

D-rest - always for every beer. Friend - I dunno. I start raising the temp after about 4-5 days for alts/kolsch to 60 and ultimately only about 63 for a couple days and then slowly drop it down. I've only made 1 lager, but not on the new system, but I would use a similar schedule.

 

Another thing it could be is temperature shock. I'll have to be careful to avoid being more than 5 degrees apart in temp when pitching the yeast into the starters.

 

Also, please smell your starters for me and let me know if you do happen to smell something like RC and try to take down environmental data as well, how you made your starter, ect.

Which yeast calculator do you use to ensure proper pitching rate?

[Big Nake]

I can't see how it could be oxygenation if it doesn't come up on all yeast strains. I suppose some strains could require more O2 than others but it kind of doesn't feel like it. That said, the "shake-the-bejesus-out-of-the-primary" thing is not consistent or efficient. I can't remember exactly where I saw this but the idea of shaking the primary is a very substandard way of introducing O2 to the wort. I'm sure these setups are more expensive now but I think I got my O2 setup for something like $20. Just a stone connected to tubing and a valve to connect the whole thing to an O2 canister. I used to go about 30 seconds but some people mentioned going a bit longer so now I go for 60 seconds. Can anyone guess how much shaking would have to take place to get the same amount of pure O2 as 60 seconds from a canister?Also... I have to say that I have been known as an 'underpitcher' on some occasions. I will pitch directly from a fresh pack of Wyeast ale yeast for a 5% beer and I just told Rich in a PM that I make small lager starters (650ml of water and ½ cup of DME, a shot of O2 and some time on the stirplate) so you would think that I would have experienced these issues as well if underpitching were the culprit. I suppose it doesn't have to be just one thing... maybe it's a combination of things that cause the RC. I always make my starters at room temp (on a stirplate) and the only issues I have is if I mess up and somehow contaminate the starter and get some 'funky' flavors and even completely nasty aromas like a sewer or something. No melon, pumpkin, etc.

[neddles]

I usually pitch right into the wort rather than decanting the starter.

What is the typical volume of these starters that you are not decanting and how many gallons are you pitching them into? If your starter is pretty generously sized (as it should be for alt, kolsch, lagers) I would think that the nasty (and likely estery/off flavored from alt and lager yeast starter ferments at or above 70F) starter beer could negatively impact the finished beer, especially in the more delicately flavored lagers and kolsch. Just a thought.

[Big Nake]

What is the typical volume of these starters that you are not decanting and how many gallons are you pitching them into? If your starter is pretty generously sized (as it should be for alt, kolsch, lagers) I would think that the nasty (and likely estery/off flavored from alt and lager yeast starter ferments at or above 70F) starter beer could negatively impact the finished beer, especially in the more delicately flavored lagers and kolsch. Just a thought.

Are you saying that the starter working at room temp could be an issue?

[SchwanzBrewer]

What is the typical volume of these starters that you are not decanting and how many gallons are you pitching them into? If your starter is pretty generously sized (as it should be for alt, kolsch, lagers) I would think that the nasty (and likely estery/off flavored from alt and lager yeast starter ferments at or above 70F) starter beer could negatively impact the finished beer, especially in the more delicately flavored lagers and kolsch. Just a thought.

 

No more than 2L for a 10 gal batch usually. I don't make a lot of bigger beers.

 

 

ChicagoWaterGuy, I use yeastcalculator.com or kai's calc on brewersfriend.com. The pitch rate shouldn't be an issue. I do intend on doing some yeast counting when I get some equipment. I make sure to buy fresh yeast too.

[MyaCullen]

the lack of decanting seems like it could be an issue

[SchwanzBrewer]

What is the typical volume of these starters that you are not decanting and how many gallons are you pitching them into? If your starter is pretty generously sized (as it should be for alt, kolsch, lagers) I would think that the nasty (and likely estery/off flavored from alt and lager yeast starter ferments at or above 70F) starter beer could negatively impact the finished beer, especially in the more delicately flavored lagers and kolsch. Just a thought.

 

Could be. That's why I want to see if temp makes a difference. I'll do a longer starter in the ferm chamber at lower temp that shouldn't cause as much off flavor issues and compare it to a normal room temp starter.

the lack of decanting seems like it could be an issue

 

Could be. I'll text my buddy and ask if he decanted. I think he did.

 

edit: no he didn't

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 14 July 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[neddles]

Are you saying that the starter working at room temp could be an issue?

Yes if it is not decanted prior to pitching.

 

No more than 2L for a 10 gal batch usually. I don't make a lot of bigger beers.

 

 

ChicagoWaterGuy, I use yeastcalculator.com or kai's calc on brewersfriend.com. The pitch rate shouldn't be an issue. I do intend on doing some yeast counting when I get some equipment. I make sure to buy fresh yeast too.

Calculated at yestcalculator.com… 2L starter pitched into 10 gallons of an alt/kolsch @1.050 you would be under pitching by about 90 billion cells and that's with yeast that is 100% viable (which we know is not realistic). Same situation as above for a lager and you are under pitching by 320 billion cells. No small cookies there. Could also be part of the problem.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Yes if it is not decanted prior to pitching.

 

Calculated at yestcalculator.com… 2L starter pitched into 10 gallons of an alt/kolsch @1.050 you would be under pitching by about 90 billion cells and that's with yeast that is 100% viable (which we know is not realistic). Same situation as above for a lager and you are under pitching by 320 billion cells. No small cookies there. Could also be part of the problem.

That's what I was thinking. A 2L starter with fresh yeast on a stir plate is between 50 at 60% of the yeast you need for a hybrid beer. And way under half for a lager.

And definitely decant.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Yes if it is not decanted prior to pitching.

 

Calculated at yestcalculator.com… 2L starter pitched into 10 gallons of an alt/kolsch @1.050 you would be under pitching by about 90 billion cells and that's with yeast that is 100% viable (which we know is not realistic). Same situation as above for a lager and you are under pitching by 320 billion cells. No small cookies there. Could also be part of the problem.

 

Are you using Kai's stir plate method? I use whatever size the calc tells me to use. The odds of it being underpitching are pretty low, IMO. Reason being, if the RC is already in the starter then it's not cell count related. Plus last year I did several batches where I varied the pitch rate and got the RC in all of them. I was actually more worried about overpitching than under because jamil's calc had some discrepancies that would have made me over pitch.

 

Also, using the calc I have not got that character in my kolsch this year with the new equipment. The main difference in the equipment is actual discrete ferm temp control, not batch control.

[Big Nake]

I was going to start another thread here because I don't want to derail Rich's thread but I suppose it's a part of this conversation so here goes: I make small starters (for ales and lagers) with 650ml of water, a ½ cup of DME and a fresh vial or swollen smack pack. I hit it with a shot of O2 (which many people said was unnecessary... not sure on that) and put it on the stirplate. I take that starter when it's active and I pitch the whole thing into a 5% (ish) lager or ale. I just did it this morning. You guys know that I make small, relatively tame beers that would probably show flaws if I did something REALLY wrong. One reason I don't decant is because I don't want to possibly pour good yeast cells out of the starter vessel. So at pitching time I oxygenate my wort for about 60 seconds and then pitch the entire 650ml starter into the primary. I did that this morning around 11:30 and at 5:30 this afternoon I went down to the lager fridge and gently swirled that primary and I got a big exhale from the airlock that sent Starsan solution all over me and bubbled up on top of the airlock. I realize that action was not a magic sign from the brewing gods or a guarantee of good beer. But I make a lot of simple beers and I use this practice every time I make a starter. On subsequent batches, I harvest slurry and pitch the volume called for on MrMalty.

[MyaCullen]

maybe Brett?

[JMcG]

Sure sounds like acetaldehyde.  If you can, try doubling the starter size and chilling the starter wort the night before, then decanting before you pitch.  I usually use two L starter for 5 gal.

I never add O2 for moderately strong beers (up to 1.075 OG or so) and it has not been an issue.

That said, when I do an Alt I leave it on the yeast for 2-3 weeks and cold condition for 6 more weeks (1007).  But Blktre makes a great Alt with 1056 at 60dF in half the time.

[neddles]

Are you using Kai's stir plate method?

Yes.

 

I use whatever size the calc tells me to use.

Which, in the 10 gallon 1.050 example I gave above would be an almost 2.75L starter for the alt/kolsch and over 4.25L starter for a lager. Zainasheff and White recommend in Yeast to avoid adding the starter beer to your wort and mention that it should ideally be no more that 5% of the total volume of your beer. In the case of the alt/kolsch an undecanted starter of 2.75L in 10 gallons represents over 6.75% of your finished beer volume and in the case of the lager an undecanted starter of 4.25L represents over 10% of your finished volume. Now, I don't know what's causing the RC. I know you have done a ton of digging and experimentation so you'll have a better grasp on the real problem than I will. I am really just pointing this out to help you find the problem. I would really want someone else to point it out to me. With what you have given us there it seems there exists a pretty good potential for off characters. There seems to be some discrepancy with what you have said you are doing with your starters. If your starters are truly "no more than 2L for a 10 gallon batch usually" then you are clearly under pitching according to the calculator you are using. Conversely, if you are using whatever size the calculator is telling you and then pitching the entire starter then you are introducing to your beer the off-flavors produced during the starter fermentation. I hope this makes sense.