46 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

What you guys are missing, IMO, is that I think the RC is in the starter prior to pitching in the beer. If that is indeed the case, the size of the pitch and the O2 levels of the wort it goes into would have nothing to do with the RC. That would indicate to me that most likely temperature, wort, or water is the factor.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I get more fruit cocktail/fruit salad from kolsch yeast when it ferments warm. I crash chill and decant all my lager/kolsch/alt starters.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I get more fruit cocktail/fruit salad from kolsch yeast when it ferments warm. I crash chill and decant all my lager/kolsch/alt starters.

 

Fruit salad with melon in it?

[Big Nake]

Fruit salad with melon in it?

Hey, you guys are derailing this thread with your desserts!

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Fruit salad with melon in it?

More pear, cherry, peach, big fruit esters. What you are describing really seems like acetaldehyde. 

[denny]

Last year I chased this off flavor around in my alts and kolsch. It was so common in my beers that it became "Rich Character" (RC) as dubbed by my competition team. This year using different equipment it disappeared. That in itself is anecdotal since I've changed so many things.

 

Then, last week at my competition team meeting one of my friends on the team brought a schwartzbier that had the RC in it. It was unmistakable. That got me to thinking again where it was coming from. I certainly don't want my friend to beat his head against the wall like I did. He's been making lagers as a starter beer for a big baltic porter. The porter is phenomenal and one of the local breweries wants to brew it. So my friend is making sure that he can reproduce it.

 

What I'm thinking is that this isn't a contamination issue. I'm really careful and the RC didn't show up in hefe's or saison, just alts and kolsch. I think it's a fermentation byproduct associated with most likely temperature. I think I've smelled the RC in starters with 1007 before that were done at room temp, but I can't be certain.

 

So, I'm going to conduct a test and make two starters from the same wort. I'm going to put both on stir plates, but one will be in my fermentation chamber, the other in the kitchen at room temp (74*).

 

If I get the RC in both starters I'll know that either temperature isn't a factor OR that my ferm champ temp control isn't as good as I thought. I'll have to repeat the experiment to be sure. I'm also assuming that it's in the starter and carrying over to the beer.

 

Other sources - over pitching, under pitching, contamination, too high concentration of starsan?, PBW or soap residue, water chemistry, O2 levels at pitching

 

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from anyone here that makes Alts, Kolsch, and Lagers to see if you all get any of the RC in your starters.

 

My starter procedure...

 

I use yeastcalculator.com to figure out how much DME I need. Usually it's about 7ish grams in 2L of water getting the OG to 1.037. I use my tap water for starters. Usually untreated (by me). I boil in a pot and cool down with an IC, then put it in the fridge until it gets to about 70 deg. Dump into a sanitized Erlenmeyer flask and add the yeast and put it on the stir plate for 12-24 hours. I usually pitch right into the wort rather than decanting the starter.

 

Cheers.

 

well, I use that yeast a LOT and always make room temp starters.  I ferment it anywhere from 52-62F.  I have never gotten any of the flavors you mention.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I kegged the alt last night and I couldn't detect any of the off flavors. It's clean. Thing is though, parts of the fermenter had mold on the outside and I caught wiffs of that melon character. I dunno. We'll see how this beer ages as it clears.

 

I used gelatin, but I didn't read the directions right and screwed it up. I didn't let it bloom first before heating the water. Don't know how much that matters, but cold will clear the beer in a week or so.

 

I might have used too much carafa in this one, or my mash extracted too much character from the carafa, because it has a bit of roast character. I think it's too much to be classic to the style, but not a bad tasting beer so far. It has some lagering and carbonating to do yet so I'm not worried about the flavor yet.

[denny]

I might have used too much carafa in this one, or my mash extracted too much character from the carafa, because it has a bit of roast character. I think it's too much to be classic to the style, but not a bad tasting beer so far. It has some lagering and carbonating to do yet so I'm not worried about the flavor yet.

 

Which is why I prefer using Sinamar.  Less flavor, more controllable.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Which is why I prefer using Sinamar.  Less flavor, more controllable.

 

Never heard of that. Might try it next time.

 

I should also add that this was the first time really nailing the PH for the mash and sparge for this beer. I suspect by reducing the RA I got a maltier profile. That seemed to be the case with the kolsch as well.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 23 July 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[neddles]

Which is why I prefer using Sinamar.  Less flavor, more controllable.

Denny, at what point in your process do you like to add the sinamar? 

 

ETA: Also, how does it compare to midnight wheat in terms of roast flavor contribution?

Edited by ettels4, 23 July 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[denny]

Never heard of that. Might try it next time.

 

I should also add that this was the first time really nailing the PH for the mash and sparge for this beer. I suspect by reducing the RA I got a maltier profile. That seemed to be the case with the kolsch as well.

 

Just add a little bit at a time to the kettle until you get the color you want...https://www.weyerman...=269&sprache=10

Denny, at what point in your process do you like to add the sinamar? 

 

ETA: Also, how does it compare to midnight wheat in terms of roast flavor contribution?

 

I add it to the kettle any tine during the boil.  I've even added it to a keg post fermentation.  I'd say it has even less flavor than Midnight wheat, but it certainly doesn't have any more.  The main reason I like it is the controllability.  You can actually see how dark your beer is getting, as opposed to having to guess how much dark malt to add to the mash.

[neddles]

Just add a little bit at a time to the kettle until you get the color you want...https://www.weyerman...=269&sprache=10

 

I add it to the kettle any tine during the boil.  I've even added it to a keg post fermentation.  I'd say it has even less flavor than Midnight wheat, but it certainly doesn't have any more.  The main reason I like it is the controllability.  You can actually see how dark your beer is getting, as opposed to having to guess how much dark malt to add to the mash.

Thanks. I would like to try it sometime. But I would not be able to judge final beer color from additions made while in the kettle. Beersmith gives a color estimate based on quantity like any software would do with grain. Maybe I'll try that route.

[neddles]

Thanks. I would like to try it sometime. But I would not be able to judge final beer color from additions made while in the kettle. Beersmith gives a color estimate based on quantity like any software would do with grain. Maybe I'll try that route.

Ok from the Weyermann website 1.5oz (1.25fl.oz.) will darken a barrel of beer or wort by 1º L. So for my 6 gallon post boil batches that would be 8.22g/ºL.

 

So If I wanted to make a 8SRM IPA into a 33SRM Black IPA simply by adding sinamar I would just add (8.22g x 25) 206g of sinamar to the kettle. Sound right?

[HVB]

From Midwest Supplies

 

4 oz. will add 16 srm units to 5 gallons.

 

From BYO

 

For the North Amercian homebrewer, used to a different set of units, this translates into the following useful equations:

About 0.25 oz. (7 g) or 0.2 fl. oz. (6 mL) of SINAMAR® make 5 gallons (19 L) of wort or beer 1 SRM darker.

To make a 5-gallon (19-L) batch of wort or beer 10 SRM darker, for instance, you need 2.5 ounces (70 g) or 2 fl. oz. (60 mL) of SINAMAR®.

An entire homebrew-size bottle of SINAMAR®, which contains 4 ounces by weight (110-g) or 3.2 fl. oz (96 mL) in liquid measure, makes one 5-gallon (19-liter) batch of wort or beer 16 SRM darker.

Edited by drez77, 23 July 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[neddles]

From Midwest Supplies

 

4 oz. will add 16 srm units to 5 gallons.

 

From BYO

 

For the North Amercian homebrewer, used to a different set of units, this translates into the following useful equations:

About 0.25 oz. (7 g) or 0.2 fl. oz. (6 mL) of SINAMAR® make 5 gallons (19 L) of wort or beer 1 SRM darker.

To make a 5-gallon (19-L) batch of wort or beer 10 SRM darker, for instance, you need 2.5 ounces (70 g) or 2 fl. oz. (60 mL) of SINAMAR®.

An entire homebrew-size bottle of SINAMAR®, which contains 4 ounces by weight (110-g) or 3.2 fl. oz (96 mL) in liquid measure, makes one 5-gallon (19-liter) batch of wort or beer 16 SRM darker.

Great, thanks. The bolded line, when converted to 6 gallons calls for 210g in my (+25 SRM) example where I predicted 206g. Guess my basic math skills aren't totally lost… yet.

[denny]

You're overthinking it!  Just pour some in til you get the color you want.

[neddles]

You're overthinking it!  Just pour some in til you get the color you want.

I can't judge the eventual color in the glass by what color I make it in the kettle. I'm several hundred batches behind you Denny.

[HVB]

You're overthinking it!  Just pour some in til you get the color you want.

How does that color change after fermentation,  assuming you add it to the boil?

[SchwanzBrewer]

I can't judge the eventual color in the glass by what color I make it in the kettle. I'm several hundred batches behind you Denny.

 

Even then the srm of a cleared beer is hardly what it looks like in the kettle. Usually the kettle looks a lot darker to me than the final beer.

[denny]

How does that color change after fermentation,  assuming you add it to the boil?

 

Virtually none.