73 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

it really seems like making a decent beer should be the easy part - but maybe larger than homebrew scale brewing is a lot more challenging than I think.

[Big Nake]

it really seems like making a decent beer should be the easy part - but maybe larger than homebrew scale brewing is a lot more challenging than I think.

It's possible that making beer on a large-scale system is harder than I know. But if that's the case, shouldn't these people get their brewery set up and play with it for awhile before they release crappy beer? I realize that the bills and debt are piling up and you need to get product out the door but you can't put bad product out the door. Also, I think I get the fact that it's not MAKING beer that's tough, it's SELLING beer that is the tricky part. But if that's the case, some of these places can't do either one. 

Edited by KenLenard, 13 August 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Scaling isn't linear. But, once you know your system you should be able to get in the ball park for a new beer.

 

I think I read that Sierra Nevada took 23 batches before they were able to produce Pale Ale like the small batch version they wanted.

[SchwanzBrewer]

It's possible that making beer on a large-scale system is harder than I know. But if that's the case, shouldn't these people get their brewery set up and play with it for awhile before they release crappy beer? I realize that the bills and debt are piling up and you need to get product out the door but you can't put bad product out the door. Also, I think I get the fact that it's not MAKING beer that's tough, it's SELLING beer that is the tricky part. But if that's the case, some of these places can't do either one. 

 

Making beer and selling beer are two different balls of wax. It's not that someone can't do both really well, it's just a matter of time allocation. You can't brew beer every day and expect to go on sales calls every day too. Craft beer isn't particularly hard to sell in the emerging markets right now. Some of the not so great breweries around here sell every keg they make, we're an emerging market still. If you were starting up in Portland, Seattle, or San Diego you better make some really damn good beer if you want to compete for tap space and shelf space.

 

The best thing you can do for a crappy brewery is to give them honest feed back. You don't have to be mean about it, just honest. They might not like it, but that's their loss for not paying attention. If they do take your feedback well then good on them. There will be a culling of these breweries that don't perform once the market saturates enough.

[Big Nake]

Funny that you mention brewing every day, going out on sales calls, etc.  One article that I read said that you shouldn't really open a brewery just because you're a brewer.  The job of "brewery owner" will be so demanding that the owner would not be the one brewing... you wouldn't have time.  I thought that was interesting because when I [rarely] envision opening a brewery, I envision myself up to my elbows in grist in the morning and then in a conference with sales people or distributors in the afternoon (or whatever).  The article basically said that if the brewery was any good, the owner would not be the one brewing... ever.  Instead you get someone talented to brew your recipes, apparently.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

it really seems like making a decent beer should be the easy part - but maybe larger than homebrew scale brewing is a lot more challenging than I think.

I judge a fair amount of homebrew. At any given contest there might be one or two beers that I would buy. It should be easier on a larger scale but there is still a lot of mediocre beer out there.

[positiveContact]

I judge a fair amount of homebrew. At any given contest there might be one or two beers that I would buy. It should be easier on a larger scale but there is still a lot of mediocre beer out there.

 

decent is not great - most people wouldn't know the difference.

[Big Nake]

...there is still a lot of mediocre beer out there.

That should be on a t-shirt. :DI have envisioned working in a large-scale brewery and making my MLPA (probably the beer I have made most in the past 15 years) and assumed that the beer would be made, fermented and served and I would say, that's not MLPA! because making it on such a large scale would require some adjustment to the recipe or whatever. I'm not sure what has to happen between small & large scale but most large breweries have small pilot breweries for experimentation and they must eventually get to know their system well enough to make the leap from small to large.

Edited by KenLenard, 13 August 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[denny]

I know this is OT but how on Earth do these people get their brewery up & running (with everything that goes into it) and then make crappy beer. I'm not talking about styles that people don't care for or whatever... I'm talking about low-quality or poorly-made beer. I just don't get it. Even if you *DID* make a terrible batch of beer, you can't SELL it. All it takes is one bad batch for people to say to each other, You know, these guys don't know how to make beer. and that's the end of your brewery. I went to a place that had local beer from a father & son brewery nearby. We ordered their Amber Ale and it arrived at the table looking like dirty dishwater, hazy and no head. My wife and I looked at each other and then tasted it. ZOMFG, I can't see how they even released it from the brewery.

 

You would be surprised by what sells.  I'm seeing beer quality being only a part of the picture.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

decent is not great - most people wouldn't know the difference.

too true

[denny]

It's possible that making beer on a large-scale system is harder than I know. But if that's the case, shouldn't these people get their brewery set up and play with it for awhile before they release crappy beer? I realize that the bills and debt are piling up and you need to get product out the door but you can't put bad product out the door. Also, I think I get the fact that it's not MAKING beer that's tough, it's SELLING beer that is the tricky part. But if that's the case, some of these places can't do either one. 

 

One very small brewery that I consult for has gone through this.  He had some kinda "off the wall" ideas when he started.  I encouraged him to brew some test batches.  He couldn't come close to affording it.  He also couldn't afford to dump a batch.  When I pointed out that putting bad beer out would put him at a disadvantage in the future, his reply was that lots of breweries sold bad beer and that people forget about it when it starts getting better.  Fortunately, his first batches were fairly good and continue to improve.  But it's easy for us to sit here on the sidelines and talk about how we'd do it when once you get out there it's the realities that dictate your process.

I think I read that Sierra Nevada took 23 batches before they were able to produce Pale Ale like the small batch version they wanted.

 

It took me nearly that many batches of Rye IPA before I settled on the recipe and ensured it was rfepeatable.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Funny that you mention brewing every day, going out on sales calls, etc.  One article that I read said that you shouldn't really open a brewery just because you're a brewer.  The job of "brewery owner" will be so demanding that the owner would not be the one brewing... you wouldn't have time.  I thought that was interesting because when I [rarely] envision opening a brewery, I envision myself up to my elbows in grist in the morning and then in a conference with sales people or distributors in the afternoon (or whatever).  The article basically said that if the brewery was any good, the owner would not be the one brewing... ever.  Instead you get someone talented to brew your recipes, apparently.

My dream scenario is a 3 to 7 bbl brewery where I sell 90% of the beer on draft onsite. 

[denny]

You can't brew beer every day and expect to go on sales calls every day too.

 

Actually, the brewery I've been talking about does exactly that.  The guy is the only brewery employee.  He brews the beer AND goes out to sell it.  AND he runs an organic hop farm at the same time.  He's about dead from all the work, but it's the economics that dictate the schedule.  He does have a partner in Seattle who manages a couple bars there and does some sales there.  But it's mainly a one man operation.

[SchwanzBrewer]

One very small brewery that I consult for has gone through this.  He had some kinda "off the wall" ideas when he started.  I encouraged him to brew some test batches.  He couldn't come close to affording it.  He also couldn't afford to dump a batch.  When I pointed out that putting bad beer out would put him at a disadvantage in the future, his reply was that lots of breweries sold bad beer and that people forget about it when it starts getting better.  Fortunately, his first batches were fairly good and continue to improve.  But it's easy for us to sit here on the sidelines and talk about how we'd do it when once you get out there it's the realities that dictate your process.

 

It took me nearly that many batches of Rye IPA before I settled on the recipe and ensured it was rfepeatable.

 

Yup. Running a business is different than running a home brewery. When your livelihood is at stake, you sell what you can. In a perfect world a start up would have enough capital to work through the issues prior to release. Copper Tail and Cigar City here in Tampa is a prime examples of that. They each have deep pockets, but they are still businesses. Cigar City has put out some beer that just isn't up to par. They still sell it all, but it's not perfected. Copper Tail is about to open at the end of the month. They have deep pockets and they're going big, but realities of life have settled in, they are behind schedule, and the investors want to see cash flow or they might bail. So they are rushing to open.

 

If a place is established and they haven't improved quality since they opened then they just aren't doing things right. It will bite them in the next few years.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Actually, the brewery I've been talking about does exactly that.  The guy is the only brewery employee.  He brews the beer AND goes out to sell it.  AND he runs an organic hop farm at the same time.  He's about dead from all the work, but it's the economics that dictate the schedule.  He does have a partner in Seattle who manages a couple bars there and does some sales there.  But it's mainly a one man operation.

 

Yeah, caveat should be, do all that and expect to not die from exhaustion in 6 months, divorced, or find your wife in bed with your neighbor after an 18 hour day and be too tired to fight so you just push them aside and say don't mind me as you pass out. It's doable, but it's crazy.

 

Guy here was a one man operation. He sold everything through the tap. He makes some exceptional beer though. He hasn't had to make many sales calls. That doesn't mean the rest of the business activities haven't been tough on him though. Running any small business is tough. Brewing adds a layer that is tough to overcome for most.

[denny]

Yeah, caveat should be, do all that and expect to not die from exhaustion in 6 months, divorced, or find your wife in bed with your neighbor after an 18 hour day and be too tired to fight so you just push them aside and say don't mind me as you pass out. It's doable, but it's crazy.

 

Guy here was a one man operation. He sold everything through the tap. He makes some exceptional beer though. He hasn't had to make many sales calls. That doesn't mean the rest of the business activities haven't been tough on him though. Running any small business is tough. Brewing adds a layer that is tough to overcome for most.

 

The brewery I'm speaking about is in an area that isn't zoned for a taproom, so he has no choice but to go out and sell.

[Big Nake]

Running any small business is tough. Brewing adds a layer that is tough to overcome for most.

The fact that you can't just "make" a product and have it ready in an hour (like a bakery or something) is one issue and the fact that the product is relatively perishable is another issue. Natural products don't always come out exactly the same and as a homebrewer you might say that's part of the fun but most commercial enterprises like consistency so there are a lot of daunting variables. I like to think that I make great beer but again, it wouldn't be the beermaking that would make me lose sleep. It's getting a foothold in a competitive marketplace, standing out in a sea of very good craft beers that are already out there, selling as much beer as I make (or close to it), paying the bills and staying relevant so you can continue to do all of that for a long time.

[neddles]

Professional brewing would not be for me. I have an interest in developing, brewing, and drinking beer in the comfort of my own home. And no interest in packaging, distributing, and marketing. The stuff on the shelf seems like it would be a highly competitive low margin product. Add to that, so much of what happens to your beer is out of your control after it leaves the brewery. Margins I'm sure are better if you serve on site but that seems dangerously close to running a restaurant which really sounds like no fun to me.

[MyaCullen]

Professional brewing would not be for me. I have an interest in developing, brewing, and drinking beer in the comfort of my own home. And no interest in packaging, distributing, and marketing. The stuff on the shelf seems like it would be a highly competitive low margin product. Add to that, so much of what happens to your beer is out of your control after it leaves the brewery. Margins I'm sure are better if you serve on site but that seems dangerously close to running a restaurant which really sounds like no fun to me.

agreed

[positiveContact]

Professional brewing would not be for me. I have an interest in developing, brewing, and drinking beer in the comfort of my own home. And no interest in packaging, distributing, and marketing. The stuff on the shelf seems like it would be a highly competitive low margin product. Add to that, so much of what happens to your beer is out of your control after it leaves the brewery. Margins I'm sure are better if you serve on site but that seems dangerously close to running a restaurant which really sounds like no fun to me.

 

ideal situation would be brewing for an already successful beer pub.  you just make the beer and it is served on site.  that is, it would be ideal if they'd pay me my current salary