12 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

My buddy made some nice brett/lacto beers. The brett will only take the PH of the beer down to 3.8. It's tart, but not quite sour enough. After the wort was soured, he took a PH reading of 3.8, right where it's supposed to be. After he boiled the wort he took another reading and it was reduced to 3.5. What he suspects is that the lactic acid produced by the souring mostly stays in the wort and becomes more concentrated, reducing the PH.

 

Has anyone else experienced this or can back it up? This could be a good approach to souring a beer without adding pedio or acetobacter, which will change the flavor of the beer. It simplifies recipe formulation too. Also, using other bugs will increase the time to serve. He thinks he can currently create a nice sour beer in 24 - 25 days. The beer was along the lines of a berlinner.

 

I have to say these were really nice beers he made. 

 

Cheers!

[HVB]

https://focusonthebe...rt-gueuze.html/

First I have seen of this but thanks for posting.  It is giving me some ideas, I just need to build a dedicated sour RIMS and fix up that old pump. 

[HVB]

https://focusonthebe...rt-gueuze.html/

Comments section is fun

[SchwanzBrewer]

Lactobacillus has a PH threshold of 3.8. It won't go below that according to the texts. So my friend and that brewery either have another bug in there (that is fast acting) or the boil and subsequent fermentation bring the PH down.

 

He's gonna test the boil off theory soon. His method is already very similar to the one mentioned in the article. I'll send it to him though.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I'm not convinced that pH is tied directly to perceived sourness. pH certainly isn't for total acidity.

 

I'd bet it plays a large part, since the amount of acid in solution is tied to PH unless it's buffered.

[HVB]

This link has a list of pH values for some commercial beers.

 

https://embracethefu...mmercial-beers/

[Big Nake]

What's going on in that comments section makes me feel ashamed to be a homebrewer. People who make beer might refer to it in any way they please... doesn't make it right or wrong necessarily... that's just how it goes. Remember that Miller Lite is A Fine Pilsner Beer. Same thing. Stuffy, snotty homebrewers.SHUT UP AND DRINK YOUR BEER! 

Edited by KenLenard, 27 August 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[HVB]

What's going on in that comments section makes me feel ashamed to be a homebrewer. People who make beer might refer to it in any way they please... doesn't make it right or wrong necessarily... that's just how it goes. Remember that Miller Lite is A Fine Pilsner Beer. Same thing. Stuffy, snotty homebrewers.SHUT UP AND DRINK YOUR BEER! 

I am not sure if it is stuffy, snotty homebrewers or stuffy snotty beer geeks. 

[BlKtRe]

I'm not much of sour mash kind of guy. I prefer to let lacto, brett, and other critters do the work for me. In that case I allow the lacto to drop the PH to the lower to mid 4's. Then pitch sac, pedio, and brett or a variation depending on the style I'm brewing which will bring the PH down to the upper 3's. I've had plenty of sour mash beers from home and pro brewers whom all claim a faster turn around. I've found all those beers not to have the quality of tart or sour vs stacking like the way I do it without having some age on them. Therefore I dont get the sour mash process. 

[BlKtRe]

FWIW, kettle souring I'm on board with and that's how I've always handled my Berliner Weiss and Gose 

[Brauer]

FWIW, kettle souring I'm on board with and that's how I've always handled my Berliner Weiss and Gose

Any idea what the difference could be between mash and kettle souring?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Any idea what the difference could be between mash and kettle souring?

 

Other than process, you are effectively doing the same thing, inoculating the wort with a yeast and/or bacteria.

 

You can kettle sour by creating a starter via natural yeasts and bacteria on grains, by adding a culture, or both. I think most sour mashes are naturally soured, effectively using the mash as a starter.

 

I think it boils down to using whatever process you are comfortable with that gets the results you want. There's no one way to do it.

[Brauer]

Other than process, you are effectively doing the same thing, inoculating the wort with a yeast and/or bacteria.

 

You can kettle sour by creating a starter via natural yeasts and bacteria on grains, by adding a culture, or both. I think most sour mashes are naturally soured, effectively using the mash as a starter.

 

I think it boils down to using whatever process you are comfortable with that gets the results you want. There's no one way to do it.

If I understand the processes correctly, the only difference is that one has the grain in and the other has been pulled from the grain. Should be the same collection of bugs, so I'm curious what the difference would be in the flavor. I suppose you might select for bugs that can easily eat starch or cellulose, in the mash souring...