51 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

If I saw it make any difference, I would.  But in repeated tests I get the same results whether I rehydrate or not.

 

you did some side by sides with the same wort?

[denny]

you did some side by sides with the same wort?

 

Yep.  At least 5 times.

[positiveContact]

Yep.  At least 5 times.

 

what were the beers?  varying gravities?  which yeast(s)?

 

eta:  if you have this information in a write- up somewhere feel free to hit me with a link as well.  sorry about all the questions...

Edited by TheGuv, 04 September 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Big Nake]

Aeration/oxygenation is generally unnecessary with dry yeast.  As I'm sure you know, the purpose of aeration is to help the yeast synthesize sterols which keep yeast membranes pliable for cell division.  With the number of cells in a pack of dry yeast, you really don't need much, if any, cell growth most of the time.  I doubt aeration will hurt anything, though.

Very true and I agree that it could make minimal difference, etc. but Chad's experience is outside of my experience with dry yeast and the amount of time it takes to start cranking. I guess I could see yeast that was older taking 48 hours to start or maybe wort that was too cool or whatever. I probably have to excuse myself from the conversation though because I have used dry yeast very sparingly. I have used US05 a handful of times and also S33 and 34/70 a couple of times but nothing that would suggest I'm experienced with it. In my Brew-On-Premise days, the 'experts' there suggested rehydrating the yeast in cooled wort and that's how I did it numerous times and I had good results and very quick starts.

[denny]

what were the beers?  varying gravities?  which yeast(s)?

 

eta:  if you have this information in a write- up somewhere feel free to hit me with a link as well.  sorry about all the questions...

 

I think I have it written up, but I don't think I ever published it.  They were all either APA or AIPA, OG from 1.062-74.  Using US-05.  One pack in each.

[denny]

Very true and I agree that it could make minimal difference, etc. but Chad's experience is outside of my experience with dry yeast and the amount of time it takes to start cranking. I guess I could see yeast that was older taking 48 hours to start or maybe wort that was too cool or whatever. I probably have to excuse myself from the conversation though because I have used dry yeast very sparingly. I have used US05 a handful of times and also S33 and 34/70 a couple of times but nothing that would suggest I'm experienced with it. In my Brew-On-Premise days, the 'experts' there suggested rehydrating the yeast in cooled wort and that's how I did it numerous times and I had good results and very quick starts.

 

Why are people so hung up on how long it takes the yeast to start?  Frankly, IMO everything from 2 hours to 48 hours is all the same.  FWIW, rehydrating yeast in wort isn't recommended due to the osmotic pressure on the yeast cells.  OTOH, what's the difference between that and pitching it unrehydrated?

[positiveContact]

I think I have it written up, but I don't think I ever published it.  They were all either APA or AIPA, OG from 1.062-74.  Using US-05.  One pack in each.

 

so at the very least it doesn't seem to affect US-05 much.  was that 5 gallons?  that seems like it's at the limit of a single pack in terms of OG according to the experts.

Why are people so hung up on how long it takes the yeast to start?  Frankly, IMO everything from 2 hours to 48 hours is all the same.  FWIW, rehydrating yeast in wort isn't recommended due to the osmotic pressure on the yeast cells.  OTOH, what's the difference between that and pitching it unrehydrated?

 

i agree - if you are rehydrating in something other than water you might as well just dry pitch it into your wort.  this is regardless of if you think rehydrating in water helps or not.

[Poptop]

so at the very least it doesn't seem to affect US-05 much.  was that 5 gallons?  that seems like it's at the limit of a single pack in terms of OG according to the experts. 

... and in my limited experience using Bell Saison, it did not affect it at all.  Btw, I have also dry pitched plenty of packs of US-05 from 1.050 to 1.070 and all took off with a bang. 

[denny]

so at the very least it doesn't seem to affect US-05 much.  was that 5 gallons?  that seems like it's at the limit of a single pack in terms of OG according to the experts.

 

i agree - if you are rehydrating in something other than water you might as well just dry pitch it into your wort.  this is regardless of if you think rehydrating in water helps or not.

 

Yep, 5 gal.

[MyaCullen]

if pitching into wort is 50% lethal, wouldn't having the wort freshly aerated help the survivors?

[johnpreuss]

I can't believe this thread is even going this far.....  MOST of you haven't used dry yeast in forever or have denounced it... BlKtRe ( I know you haven't commented - S05 hater).  I will say this, without dry yeast I wouldn't have brewed but once last year.  I can tell you rehydrating has it's pros and cons... personally I've decided I see no reason to rehydrate.  If you choose to do so you must only let it sit for 20 minutes max or you may as well make a starter, you also give your beer another chance to get contaminated and I see no difference in air lock lag time either way.. 

 

Just my $0.02

 

[Big Nake]

I can't believe this thread is even going this far.....  MOST of you haven't used dry yeast in forever or have denounced it... BlKtRe ( I know you haven't commented - S05 hater).  I will say this, without dry yeast I wouldn't have brewed but once last year.  I can tell you rehydrating has it's pros and cons... personally I've decided I see no reason to rehydrate.  If you choose to do so you must only let it sit for 20 minutes max or you may as well make a starter, you also give your beer another chance to get contaminated and I see no difference in air lock lag time either way..  Just my $0.02 

I hear you. When I started brewing and heard about all of the liquid yeast pampering that had to be done, etc., I did not like the sound of it. I had young kids and wanted to brew-on-the-fly. That's probably when I did most of my dry yeast brewing with yeast like Muntons, Edme and a number of others. I have always said that if you're able to brew your own beer and consistently make good beer, you're a lucky person. Most people don't have the time to learn it all and do it all and most of the time, brewing is a low (lowest?) priority. These days, I might take a very fresh Wyeast packet of ale yeast, smack it, wait for it to swell and pitch it directly into my wort. For lagers, I make a modest starter and the lagers are coming out better and better. I'm not running a production brewery here but there is always something going on beer-wise... I just don't like babysitting yeast.

[johnpreuss]

I hear you. When I started brewing and heard about all of the liquid yeast pampering that had to be done, etc., I did not like the sound of it. I had young kids and wanted to brew-on-the-fly. That's probably when I did most of my dry yeast brewing with yeast like Muntons, Edme and a number of others. I have always said that if you're able to brew your own beer and consistently make good beer, you're a lucky person. Most people don't have the time to learn it all and do it all and most of the time, brewing is a low (lowest?) priority. These days, I might take a very fresh Wyeast packet of ale yeast, smack it, wait for it to swell and pitch it directly into my wort. For lagers, I make a modest starter and the lagers are coming out better and better. I'm not running a production brewery here but there is always something going on beer-wise... I just don't like babysitting yeast.

 

Ok, Dry yeast has come along ways since you started brewing!!!  LOL  j/k

 

I also have read but please do not quote me here because I have no scientific backing here but there is talk out there that Jamil/YeastCalc actually have you over pitching.  I have to ask the question, Is it really necessary to pitch as much yeast as they say, or is the extra yeast there to make up for other problems in your brewing?:  Not to be the devils advocate here but it is a valid question.  Do you ever read anywhere about Jamil worrying about pH or water chemistry?  I actually  remember reading in Brewing Classic Styles to leave your water alone. 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like dry yeast (specifically S05 / S04 / W34/70 / heck my last nottingham beer was good)  but I have no problems using liquid yeasts.  My personal favorite yeasts are 1272, 1968, and 1450 that being said, I have my reservations about a right or wrong way to handle dry yeast.  We are talking about a living organism, they don't like following rules all the time.

[Big Nake]

Ok, Dry yeast has come along ways since you started brewing!!!  LOL  j/k I also have read but please do not quote me here because I have no scientific backing here but there is talk out there that Jamil/YeastCalc actually have you over pitching.  I have to ask the question, Is it really necessary to pitch as much yeast as they say, or is the extra yeast there to make up for other problems in your brewing?:  Not to be the devils advocate here but it is a valid question.  Do you ever read anywhere about Jamil worrying about pH or water chemistry?  I actually  remember reading in Brewing Classic Styles to leave your water alone.  Don't get me wrong.  I like dry yeast (specifically S05 / S04 / W34/70 / heck my last nottingham beer was good)  but I have no problems using liquid yeasts.  My personal favorite yeasts are 1272, 1968, and 1450 that being said, I have my reservations about a right or wrong way to handle dry yeast.  We are talking about a living organism, they don't like following rules all the time.

On the topic of water (do you want me to stop right now? ), no one (even Jamil) can't say to leave your water alone. He doesn't know your water and he doesn't know what you're making so that doesn't hold... um... water. But on the topic of yeast, again... I make 5%(ish) beers a lot of the time and I may be able to get away with pitching just out of a Wyeast Activator that is fresh and pitch it into well-oxygenated wort. I follow the amount of yeast to pitch from Jamil's calculator (MrMalty.com) and the amount of yeast he suggests is really not that much. 200ml of yeast for a lager is not really that much yeast. I mentioned in another thread that for lagers I take a vial of White Labs or a Wyeast Activator and make a starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup of DME. Get that on the stirplate and pitch it when it's active. Many here have said, "You are grossly underpitching" but my 5% lagers do not tell me this. And remember that I make fairly restrained styles of beer where flaws might stick out. Remember too that this is just the first run of the yeast I'm talking about. When I reuse yeast, I grab however many milliliters of yeast MrMalty suggests and go with that. Mmm, beer.

[neddles]

I have no scientific backing here but there is talk out there that Jamil/YeastCalc actually have you over pitching.  

 

Do you ever read anywhere about Jamil worrying about pH or water chemistry?  I actually  remember reading in Brewing Classic Styles to leave your water alone. 

 

My personal favorite yeasts are 1272, 1968, and 1450

Can you link to the "talk"? Where did it come from?

 

I know Jamil is not a fan of people dinking with their water but he usually says that in the context of what he has tasted at competitions. Over burtonized water, salty beers, etc. However, I have heard him say that nailing your pH is what he thinks is most important and favoring or limiting individual ions is for after you have figured everything else out. I agree. I think what you are remembering from BCS must be in the context of extract brewing. Pg 29. "Water chemistry is important for all-grain brewing." 

 

Some of my favorite yeasts as well.

[johnpreuss]

Can you link to the "talk"? Where did it come from?

 

I know Jamil is not a fan of people dinking with their water but he usually says that in the context of what he has tasted at competitions. Over burtonized water, salty beers, etc. However, I have heard him say that nailing your pH is what he thinks is most important and favoring or limiting individual ions is for after you have figured everything else out. I agree. I think what you are remembering from BCS must be in the context of extract brewing. Pg 29. "Water chemistry is important for all-grain brewing." 

 

Some of my favorite yeasts as well.

 

Refer to the "Don't quote me on this" on a previous post. I really don't remember where or exactly what was stated but I do remember more than one person feeling like the calculators call for too much yeast. 

[neddles]

Refer to the "Don't quote me on this" on a previous post. I really don't remember where or exactly what was stated but I do remember more than one person feeling like the calculators call for too much yeast. 

Got it. From a practical standpoint that may be true, I don't know. Should have read your wording more carefully.

[brewman]

Living in South Florida I use dry yeast when I order online due to the fact that it takes 3 to 5 days to get my shipment and the yeast is usually hot when I get it.

[Poptop]

Aw come on, it's not going to get hot down here for another couple days.....

[Big Nake]

Can you link to the "talk"? Where did it come from? I know Jamil is not a fan of people dinking with their water but he usually says that in the context of what he has tasted at competitions. Over burtonized water, salty beers, etc. However, I have heard him say that nailing your pH is what he thinks is most important and favoring or limiting individual ions is for after you have figured everything else out. I agree. I think what you are remembering from BCS must be in the context of extract brewing. Pg 29. "Water chemistry is important for all-grain brewing."  Some of my favorite yeasts as well.

When I started looking into water and the impact it had on various styles, I spoke to a couple of local homebrewers (one who is very good and another that is not only good but very experienced) and they both told me that they had both overdone the salt additions and either made an overly salty beer or a beer that tasted like Alka-Seltzer. They both told me that their additions were relatively modest and that they were surprised at how the beer came out. This is one reason why I am light-handed on things like CaSO4 and CaCl. Sometimes homebrewers get into a certain part of the hobby before they should be looking at other parts. Hell, I was kegging before I was making decent brew... Hooray, now I can serve my crappy beer ON DRAFT!