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Think of you clothes washer when batch sparging


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#1 Beerbecue

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:26 PM

The batch sparge method is a lot like a clothes washer. It makes one hot water infusion for the soak and then 2 more infusions for the rinse. 

 Clothes washers also agitate briskly and completely.

My efficiency has gone way up lately as I take more time to agitate before the two sparge runoffs.

 For each of the two sparge infusions I stir briskly along the sides of my braid filter for about 4-5 minutes and then like a washing machine I drain as fast as my system will allow. Just like brother Denny said back in tthe old days.



#2 djinkc

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:33 PM

And then of course......

 



#3 Big Nake

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:34 PM

Do you still do two sparges? I used to but went to one awhile back. Also, I thought someone recently posted information that suggested that stirring the mash had no direct impact on efficiency, fermentability, etc. I don't recall where I saw it (Kai's site?) but they took two identical mashes and one was left alone while the other was stirred a number of times. No difference.

#4 BarelyBrews

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:12 PM

Do you still do two sparges? I used to but went to one awhile back. Also, I thought someone recently posted information that suggested that stirring the mash had no direct impact on efficiency, fermentability, etc. I don't recall where I saw it (Kai's site?) but they took two identical mashes and one was left alone while the other was stirred a number of times. No difference.

  I do One(sparge) . However, on my last brew session i kept getting a stuck mash-out  and ended up with the sparge/mash runoff at the same time.

 

Very interesting info ken. Share more on this topic if you find it. thnks



#5 positiveContact

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:59 PM

I don't stir before my first run off.  I commonly end up in the 80% range even with my smallish sparges.



#6 Big Nake

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 06:59 PM

I do One(sparge) . However, on my last brew session i kept getting a stuck mash-out  and ended up with the sparge/mash runoff at the same time. Very interesting info ken. Share more on this topic if you find it. thnks

I'm pretty sure that Denny had his finger on this info as he is often associated with projects that look carefully at processes and comparisons with other processes. It may have been in BYO, it may have been someone who posted their findings on a site... not sure.

#7 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:11 PM

Agitation helps to a point. The sugar does not immediately dissolve into the water. Agitation helps a little. Giving it a rest will allow things to diffuse as well. Won't take too long though before saturation occurs.

 

First sparge adds significant efficiency increases. Second sparge about 3-5%. Third is almost useless.

 

I do one sparge usually. Depending on OG, I get anywhere from 60% to 86% extract efficiency. 

 

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#8 MakeMeHoppy

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:03 AM

I shake my cooler mash tun occasionally during the mash to keep things mixed up well.



#9 positiveContact

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:18 AM

I shake my cooler mash tun occasionally during the mash to keep things mixed up well.

 

you are either a giant or you make tiny mashes.  shake the cooler?  my cooler probably weighs over 100lbs when I'm mashing.  It stays put during the mash.  I know big breweries stir their mashes but I thought that was due to the large volume of their mashes.  I've never felt it was necessary at my scale.



#10 Brauer

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:49 AM

Agitation helps to a point. The sugar does not immediately dissolve into the water.

Mashing doesn't involve much dissolving of sugar, other than from crystal malt, it's mostly about dissolving starch. The starch needs to be gelatinized for the enzymes to do their work, but then the sugars are already in solution when they are made.That detail doesn't change much about what you said, it just stresses that our job is to make conditions good for gelatinizing starch, the sugar will take care of itself.

#11 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:20 AM

Mashing doesn't involve much dissolving of sugar, other than from crystal malt, it's mostly about dissolving starch. The starch needs to be gelatinized for the enzymes to do their work, but then the sugars are already in solution when they are made.That detail doesn't change much about what you said, it just stresses that our job is to make conditions good for gelatinizing starch, the sugar will take care of itself.

 

We're talking about sparge right, not mash? Sparge is just rinsing the sugars from the mash. In a batch sparge there are possibly places for sugars to be trapped. Stirring up the mash after you add the sparge water helps to release all those sugars. There's a point where you won't get anymore efficiency from doing that though.



#12 positiveContact

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:30 AM

We're talking about sparge right, not mash? Sparge is just rinsing the sugars from the mash. In a batch sparge there are possibly places for sugars to be trapped. Stirring up the mash after you add the sparge water helps to release all those sugars. There's a point where you won't get anymore efficiency from doing that though.

 

I think he's talking about the mash.  I stir 2 times.  once when I mix the strike water with the grains to break up dough balls and the like.  and then again for my batch sparge to make sure I've rinsed as much sugar as possible.



#13 denny

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:33 AM

The batch sparge method is a lot like a clothes washer. It makes one hot water infusion for the soak and then 2 more infusions for the rinse. 

 Clothes washers also agitate briskly and completely.

My efficiency has gone way up lately as I take more time to agitate before the two sparge runoffs.

 For each of the two sparge infusions I stir briskly along the sides of my braid filter for about 4-5 minutes and then like a washing machine I drain as fast as my system will allow. Just like brother Denny said back in tthe old days.

 

Draining fast is an advantage, not a requirement.  I have found at most a 1-2% increase in effieincy by doing more than one sparge.  Not worth it for me.  Sounds like it is for you.  I'll have to look for it, but Kai has dome some experiments that show quickly diminishing returns for more than one sparge addition.  I stir thoroughly, but I wouldn't call it briskly.

 

ETA:  Schwanz posted the graph.

I don't stir before my first run off.  I commonly end up in the 80% range even with my smallish sparges.

 

I'm with you...no stirring before mash run off.  I stir in the sparge water, then vorlauf and run that off.  Average 83% effieincy.

I shake my cooler mash tun occasionally during the mash to keep things mixed up well.

 

Does it really make a difference?

We're talking about sparge right, not mash? Sparge is just rinsing the sugars from the mash. In a batch sparge there are possibly places for sugars to be trapped. Stirring up the mash after you add the sparge water helps to release all those sugars. There's a point where you won't get anymore efficiency from doing that though.

 

A batch sparge drains sugars...it doesn't rinse them.


Edited by denny, 15 October 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#14 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:37 AM

 

A batch sparge drains sugars...it doesn't rinse them.

 

Semantics there. I could argue that one, but I get your point. 



#15 MakeMeHoppy

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 02:42 PM

you are either a giant or you make tiny mashes.  shake the cooler?  my cooler probably weighs over 100lbs when I'm mashing.  It stays put during the mash.  I know big breweries stir their mashes but I thought that was due to the large volume of their mashes.  I've never felt it was necessary at my scale.

No a usual 12 lb of grain for a 5 gallon batch. I don't pick it up and shake it, I rock it by tilting it to one side.

 

 

I'm not sure it has any benefit, but I also do not see any loss by doing it. I only started recently after reading about mash mixers in BYO once I check a couple more efficiencies I'll see if it matters.



#16 positiveContact

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:06 PM

No a usual 12 lb of grain for a 5 gallon batch. I don't pick it up and shake it, I rock it by tilting it to one side.

 

 

I'm not sure it has any benefit, but I also do not see any loss by doing it. I only started recently after reading about mash mixers in BYO once I check a couple more efficiencies I'll see if it matters.

 

I have to think the benefit would be minimal for most homebrewers judging by the fairly high efficiencies people already get without doing it.



#17 denny

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:22 PM

No a usual 12 lb of grain for a 5 gallon batch. I don't pick it up and shake it, I rock it by tilting it to one side.I'm not sure it has any benefit, but I also do not see any loss by doing it. I only started recently after reading about mash mixers in BYO once I check a couple more efficiencies I'll see if it matters.

See, that's the kind of thing that drives me crazy.....OK, so commercial brewers do it. Why the hell would homebrewers need to do it?

Edited by denny, 15 October 2014 - 03:23 PM.


#18 StankDelicious

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:32 PM

See, that's the kind of thing that drives me crazy.....OK, so commercial brewers do it. Why the hell would homebrewers need to do it?

 

Because we need to save those few precious pennies by upping our efficiency! :P



#19 MakeMeHoppy

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:52 PM

See, that's the kind of thing that drives me crazy.....OK, so commercial brewers do it. Why the hell would homebrewers need to do it?

I noted when I open my mash tun that the grain it typically fairly settles with the grain compacted at the bottom and the wort mostly floating on top. My thinking is it would clearly work better if is was mixed better. Opening the cooler and stirring does that well, but then I lose a few degree on my mash temp. Seemed like an easy solution to something that may improve conversion.



#20 MakeMeHoppy

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 04:01 PM

I noted when I open my mash tun that the grain it typically fairly settles with the grain compacted at the bottom and the wort mostly floating on top. My thinking is it would clearly work better if is was mixed better. Opening the cooler and stirring does that well, but then I lose a few degree on my mash temp. Seemed like an easy solution to something that may improve conversion.

 

 

As far as copying what brewies do in most cases I would suspect they represent a best practices. As a homebrewer we need to decide if something is worth adapting. Normally complex procedures with expensive equipment for an efficiency gain is not worth the cost/effort so we just use a little more grain. I may also question why homebrewers use a grain mill when a rolling pin would also crack the grain and the poor efficiency from that can just be make up by using more poorly milled grain? The answer is a mill is reasonably priced and easy to use.




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