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#1 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:11 AM

Kind of a vague title, but one thing that I have noticed about homebrewers (myself included) rarely do iodine tests on their mash.  I would bet a lot of you guys would have a neg iodine test after 20 mins.  At that point, why not just start your vorlauf and keep it moving?  If you really are stubborn, I supposed wait til 40 mins.  But what are we gaining from longer mash times?  Not much IME.  Just something to think about.  A lot of homebrewers also smartly or just out of necessity skip mashout.  In this case, you can start your vorlauf at 20 mins, finish it at 40 and start running off into the kettle.  I think we hold onto that 60 min rule pretty strictly, but if you do the iodine test, you will be surprised how fast it takes to convert most mashes.  



#2 HVB

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:18 AM

Admits that in 12+ years of brewing he has never done an iodine test.  I actually do not even know how to do one, off to read about it.


Edited by drez77, 17 October 2014 - 11:18 AM.


#3 positiveContact

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:41 AM

most of my mashes are overnight for the time splitting factor so whether it was ready to go at 20 minutes or not it doesn't matter too much to me.



#4 Bklmt2000

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:55 AM

I've never done an iodine test, either.  With today's malts, I can't imagine a scenario where a mash wouldn't convert, unless the pH were seriously screwed up.



#5 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:56 AM

Kind of a vague title, but one thing that I have noticed about homebrewers (myself included) rarely do iodine tests on their mash.  I would bet a lot of you guys would have a neg iodine test after 20 mins.  At that point, why not just start your vorlauf and keep it moving?  If you really are stubborn, I supposed wait til 40 mins.  But what are we gaining from longer mash times?  Not much IME.  Just something to think about.  A lot of homebrewers also smartly or just out of necessity skip mashout.  In this case, you can start your vorlauf at 20 mins, finish it at 40 and start running off into the kettle.  I think we hold onto that 60 min rule pretty strictly, but if you do the iodine test, you will be surprised how fast it takes to convert most mashes.  

 

As I understand it an iodine test means that the starches have been converted. That does not necessarily mean that the converted products are maltose. It just means they are no longer starches. So while it's a good indication that conversion took place it does nothing to tell you what sugars are present in your mash. I'll have to look up what the average time for converting starch to maltose is, but I'm guessing it's longer than 20-30 minutes or so to have the fermentable profile that you want.


Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 17 October 2014 - 11:57 AM.


#6 djinkc

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:56 AM

I did one several weeks ago but only because sweet potatoes were in the mash. Just because you get a negative for starch doesn't mean some longer sugars/dextrins can't be chopped up some more.

#7 Big Nake

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 12:01 PM

Yep, never have done one. Also, I always do a mash that is about 60-70 minutes long. That extra 10 minutes might be the time I'm getting the temp and pH correct. Based on what Rich mentioned (and I have heard that as well), you might get a little bit more fermentable wort from going a smidge longer. Would it make a difference? Dunno.

#8 positiveContact

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 12:03 PM

Yep, never have done one. Also, I always do a mash that is about 60-70 minutes long. That extra 10 minutes might be the time I'm getting the temp and pH correct. Based on what Rich mentioned (and I have heard that as well), you might get a little bit more fermentable wort from going a smidge longer. Would it make a difference? Dunno.

 

I haven't experienced beers that are overly dry doing overnight mashes.  I haven't done any side by side comparisons though.



#9 Deerslyr

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 12:32 PM

The first time an AG was demonstrated for me, my mentor did the iodine test to show it to me.  And then he said that the grains we were using nowadays were highly modified and that it really wasn't a great concern and it was largely an unnecessary test.  That being said, he has always done a 60 minute mash.  I've never personally done the test and am not fussed by the time.  It usually gives me some extra time t prep a few extra things before sparging, but usually it means its time for some pizza and a beer.



#10 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 01:12 PM

I haven't experienced beers that are overly dry doing overnight mashes.  I haven't done any side by side comparisons though.

All my beers now are a minimum 4 hour mash. I haven't noticed any of them being dry or thin.  



#11 dmtaylor

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 02:18 PM

Many years ago, I ran a lot of taste experiments based on varying the mash time, looking for the minimum mash time necessary to make good tasty beer.  The limiting factor is not conversion, as that happens very quickly.  The problem is ATTENUATION/FERMENTABILITY.  You can have all kinds of sugars at 20 minutes which sounds great, you've hit 80+% efficiency and you think you're good to rock and roll.  Well, you're not.  Final gravity might turn out to be 1.025 when you wanted it at 1.012.  I found that 30 minutes was sufficient mash time for good attenuation only about 50% of the time, the other 50% was poorly attenuated.  However, I found that after 40 minutes, every batch turns out fantastic, with the normal 70-80% attenuation.  So ever since then, I've been mashing for just 40-45 minutes (45 minutes if I get lazy or busy and don't get around to mashing right at 40).  No need to wait for 60 or 90 -- it's just a complete waste of time.  If you care about time.  Some people don't.  I do.  Git 'er done!

 

Oh yeah... and I've never done an iodine test, ever.  No need.  Final gravity and experimentation and experience and a good sense of taste are all you need.


Edited by dmtaylor, 17 October 2014 - 02:22 PM.


#12 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 04:48 PM

I will concede that the iodine test isn't going to tell you everything about your mash compostition, but at work, as soon as I get conversion, I start ramping to mash out at 170.  Takes probably another 10-15 minutes tops.  I consistently get beer to ferment to 1.015.  I hear what you guys are saying about composition of sugars, but it doesn't really seem to matter.  Perhaps it goes back to the well modified modern malts.  



#13 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 04:50 PM

Many years ago, I ran a lot of taste experiments based on varying the mash time, looking for the minimum mash time necessary to make good tasty beer.  The limiting factor is not conversion, as that happens very quickly.  The problem is ATTENUATION/FERMENTABILITY.  You can have all kinds of sugars at 20 minutes which sounds great, you've hit 80+% efficiency and you think you're good to rock and roll.  Well, you're not.  Final gravity might turn out to be 1.025 when you wanted it at 1.012.  I found that 30 minutes was sufficient mash time for good attenuation only about 50% of the time, the other 50% was poorly attenuated.  However, I found that after 40 minutes, every batch turns out fantastic, with the normal 70-80% attenuation.  So ever since then, I've been mashing for just 40-45 minutes (45 minutes if I get lazy or busy and don't get around to mashing right at 40).  No need to wait for 60 or 90 -- it's just a complete waste of time.  If you care about time.  Some people don't.  I do.  Git 'er done!

 

Oh yeah... and I've never done an iodine test, ever.  No need.  Final gravity and experimentation and experience and a good sense of taste are all you need.

That sounds like a great test, but there are a lot of other factors at play here.  Dissolved O2 in the wort, fermentation temp, pitch rate, yeast generation, etc.  

 

I am not putting it down, it is a great test, just a lot more goes into attenuation than length of mash.  



#14 djinkc

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 04:56 PM

I will concede that the iodine test isn't going to tell you everything about your mash compostition, but at work, as soon as I get conversion, I start ramping to mash out at 170.  Takes probably another 10-15 minutes tops.  I consistently get beer to ferment to 1.015.  I hear what you guys are saying about composition of sugars, but it doesn't really seem to matter.  Perhaps it goes back to the well modified modern malts.  

 

What yeast are you using?  I see distiller's yeast around but really don't know much about it.  Maybe that makes a significant difference when the end product won't be beer and distillation is planned.  Just wondering.



#15 denny

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 09:16 AM

Kind of a vague title, but one thing that I have noticed about homebrewers (myself included) rarely do iodine tests on their mash.  I would bet a lot of you guys would have a neg iodine test after 20 mins.  At that point, why not just start your vorlauf and keep it moving?  If you really are stubborn, I supposed wait til 40 mins.  But what are we gaining from longer mash times?  Not much IME.  Just something to think about.  A lot of homebrewers also smartly or just out of necessity skip mashout.  In this case, you can start your vorlauf at 20 mins, finish it at 40 and start running off into the kettle.  I think we hold onto that 60 min rule pretty strictly, but if you do the iodine test, you will be surprised how fast it takes to convert most mashes.  

 

You are gaining a different, more fermentable dextrin profile.  That's one of the reasons I often do 90 min, mashes.  I also fond the iodine test so unreliable that I consider it worthless.  If you really want to check for conversion, use Kai's conversion efficiency chart.



#16 Genesee Ted

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:28 AM

What yeast are you using?  I see distiller's yeast around but really don't know much about it.  Maybe that makes a significant difference when the end product won't be beer and distillation is planned.  Just wondering.

I am a pro brewer as well  B)

 

At the still I use US-05

At the brewery I use primarily 1084, but also American Lager (can't remember the number), and occasionally US-05



#17 BlKtRe

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 02:00 PM

I mash for an hour because it takes almost that long to heat sparge water. The last 10 minutes I'm recirculating with my pump.

#18 Genesee Ted

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 02:56 PM

Now I don't mean to say it is bad to go longer, I am just saying it doesn't really need to be an hour.  You won't hurt your beer going shorter. 



#19 denny

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:01 AM

Now I don't mean to say it is bad to go longer, I am just saying it doesn't really need to be an hour.  You won't hurt your beer going shorter. 

 

That's not what I've found.  My beers turn out sub par (for my tastes) when I've tried a shorter mash time.



#20 Genesee Ted

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 11:34 AM

Id love to see how that is quantified. We are turning out some pretty good stuff this way.


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