55 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

What are they lacking?

 

they never have that super smooth character I'm looking for.

 

eta:  many of my beers are often described as "clean" and "smooth" by semi-novice craft beer drinkers.  these are people that drink a lot of craft beer but aren't that knowledgeable about how the beers got to be the way they are.

 

so maybe my stouts seem kind of sour or something.  tart?  i'm not sure.  it's kind of sharp and not smooth.  not a lot.  i still like them and so do a lot of other people i just feel like I have some good room for improvement.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 30 October 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

acrid?

[neddles]

Maybe finishing to dry for a given grist? Need more body? Maybe pH does have some impact there too?

[denny]

I get skeered of the tannins so I tend to shoot to the low end on most things.  I had heard about the 5.4-5.5 for dark beers which is why on my last stout I just "let it ride!!!"  it turned out pretty well but I have yet to make a stout that really wows me.  I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

 

Tannins will only happen over 6.  You're not close to that.

they never have that super smooth character I'm looking for.

 

eta:  many of my beers are often described as "clean" and "smooth" by semi-novice craft beer drinkers.  these are people that drink a lot of craft beer but aren't that knowledgeable about how the beers got to be the way they are.

 

so maybe my stouts seem kind of sour or something.  tart?  i'm not sure.  it's kind of sharp and not smooth.  not a lot.  i still like them and so do a lot of other people i just feel like I have some good room for improvement.

 

pH too low!

[mabrungard]

Denny, I've found that I can still extract tannins if I oversparge the mash. I used to stop the runoff at 2 brix but had a hint of tannic astringency in my beers. I moved that stopping point to around 3 brix and the problem went away. I know that none of my pHs were over 6.

[denny]

Denny, I've found that I can still extract tannins if I oversparge the mash. I used to stop the runoff at 2 brix but had a hint of tannic astringency in my beers. I moved that stopping point to around 3 brix and the problem went away. I know that none of my pHs were over 6.

 

That's interesting, Martin.  I thought that gravity was an indication of buffering ability and that as the gravity fell, the buffering fell also and the pH rose.  Fortunately, that's something I almost never have to worry about.

[positiveContact]

Denny, I've found that I can still extract tannins if I oversparge the mash. I used to stop the runoff at 2 brix but had a hint of tannic astringency in my beers. I moved that stopping point to around 3 brix and the problem went away. I know that none of my pHs were over 6.

 

I do fairly small sparges (batch) so I doubt I'm oversparging them but maybe.  maybe on my next stout I'll make it small enough so I can do something pretty close to a no sparge.

[neddles]

Are there other disadvantages to no sparge other than reduced efficiency and potentially a need for a larger tun?

[positiveContact]

Are there other disadvantages to no sparge other than reduced efficiency and potentially a need for a larger tun?

 

not that I can think of.  i guess you might need add acidifying things (salts or acids) since the the water:grain ratio is so high.  that could be good or bad though.

[neddles]

With the water you are really just adjusting the mash and spage water all at once. Just thinking out loud. It just sems like there are some pitfalls that can be completly avoided if you dont sparge. With the side effect of potentially a better or at least a more pronounced malt presence in the beer.

[Brauer]

With the water you are really just adjusting the mash and spage water all at once. Just thinking out loud. It just sems like there are some pitfalls that can be completly avoided if you dont sparge. With the side effect of potentially a better or at least a more pronounced malt presence in the beer.

I agree.

[positiveContact]

With the water you are really just adjusting the mash and spage water all at once.Just thinking out loud. It just sems like there are some pitfalls that can be completly avoided if you dont sparge. With the side effect of potentially a better or at least a more pronounced malt presence in the beer.

 

well if you are looking to add minimal salts and that is your acidifying option it could be bad.

[neddles]

well if you are looking to add minimal salts and that is your acidifying option it could be bad.

Maybe Im not understanding what you are saying so clarify if Ihave it wrong. You are salting the final water profile either way so more salts arent required. In either case I would not rely solely on salts for pH control. I would use acid.

[positiveContact]

Maybe Im not understanding what you are saying so clarify if Ihave it wrong. You are salting the final water profile either way so more salts arent required. In either case I would not rely solely on salts for pH control. I would use acid.

 

more water:grain means you need to add more salts to get the mash pH right compared to a thicker mash.  usually you don't need to adjust sparge water with batch sparging.  you'd also need to add more acid if that is what you use but I don't know if there is a downside there.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 01 November 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Big Nake]

I do fairly small sparges (batch) so I doubt I'm oversparging them but maybe.  maybe on my next stout I'll make it small enough so I can do something pretty close to a no sparge.

Can you "oversparge" a batch sparge? When I hear this kind of talk, I assume that I'm hearing about fly sparging.

usually you don't need to adjust sparge water with batch sparging.

Careful there. Anyone with high(er) bicarbonate might tell you different. I adjust my sparge water to get the pH into the mid 5s before I add it to the grain for the sparge. On a pale beer, that 6.6pH water with 138ppm of bicarb could bring my sparge pH into the low 6s.

[positiveContact]

Can you "oversparge" a batch sparge? When I hear this kind of talk, I assume that I'm hearing about fly sparging.Careful there. Anyone with high(er) bicarbonate might tell you different. I adjust my sparge water to get the pH into the mid 5s before I add it to the grain for the sparge. On a pale beer, that 6.6pH water with 138ppm of bicarb could bring my sparge pH into the low 6s.

 

people like you could more easily "oversparge" a batch sparge due to your water.  that's why I said usually in the second part, I was thinking of you Ken

 

I will say this about my last stout that I let get into the 5.4-5.5 range on pH - it's one of the better ones of the last few years.

[Big Nake]

people like you could more easily "oversparge" a batch sparge due to your water.

I guess I'm not getting this. I have heard that you cannot 'oversparge' a batch sparge because to 'oversparge' is to run the gravity to a dangerously low level (and whatever unsavory thing happens at that point... tannin extraction I suppose). I think someone could futz up a batch sparge by not paying close enough attention to the pH in that vessel (back to the time+temp+pH thing which I don't think holds water. Some pale beers I had were only in the tun for the sparge for 10 minutes at maybe 165-170° and there was plenty of tannin extraction)... but I don't think this is 'oversparging' as much as it is "bad" sparging.

[positiveContact]

I guess I'm not getting this. I have heard that you cannot 'oversparge' a batch sparge because to 'oversparge' is to run the gravity to a dangerously low level (and whatever unsavory thing happens at that point... tannin extraction I suppose). I think someone could futz up a batch sparge by not paying close enough attention to the pH in that vessel (back to the time+temp+pH thing which I don't think holds water. Some pale beers I had were only in the tun for the sparge for 10 minutes at maybe 165-170° and there was plenty of tannin extraction)... but I don't think this is 'oversparging' as much as it is "bad" sparging.

 

I'd say at any point where your sparge is extracting tannins you are overdoing it for you conditions.  it's the equivalent in my mind to a fly sparger oversparing which is why I put it in quotes.

 

to make my point there should be some tiny batch sparge you could do that wouldn't extract tannins.  more water in your batch sparge = higher pH.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 02 November 2014 - 03:45 AM.

[Brauer]

more water:grain means you need to add more salts to get the mash pH right compared to a thicker mash. usually you don't need to adjust sparge water with batch sparging. you'd also need to add more acid if that is what you use but I don't know if there is a downside there.

I don't think it's going to be much of an issue for brewers with water like ours. However, no sparge doesn't force you to add the water all at once. When I no-sparge, I mash the first step at the same mash thickness as my batch sparge, ~2 qt/#. Then, I step with what would have been the sparge water, which changes the pH of the mash less than it would have if it had been used as a sparge.Of course, yellow beer is always a problem, though I have less tannin extraction with those when no sparging. Since I make mostly dark beer and use a lot of Munich, pH is less of a problem, but I still get less tannin extraction without a sparge. I think any sparged beer might be over extracted when compared to an otherwise identical no sparge, but I'm intollerant of tannins.

[denny]

Can you "oversparge" a batch sparge? When I hear this kind of talk, I assume that I'm hearing about fly sparging. 

 

Yes, you can. But it's harder to do than fly sparging.  You would need to add a very large amount of sparge water in relation to the amount of grain or have very alkaline water.  In a "normal" brewing situation, that won't happen.

Edited by denny, 02 November 2014 - 09:51 AM.