6 replies to this topic

[gnef]

Let me first start by saying that this is completely new to me, and I have not fully done my research. I have the book Wild Brews, but haven't started it yet (I know, first mistake, but I will start reading it soon, I've just started more research online and by searching this forum).

 

So our last club barrel batch was a Wee heavy, and it became infected (I believe the consensus was lacto, but I can't recall for sure. Cheflamont may recall better than I can).

 

I bought the barrel off the club and have it stored in the warm side of the walk-in filled with filtered water, and topped off whenever I remember to. I do notice a pellicle of sorts every time I open it up as well, which is expected.

 

Now, I have been talking with cheflamont and another brewer in our local club about doing a solera together. I believe we have decided on a flanders red. The first question, would be if that would work well flavor-wise with the bug that is currently in the barrel?

 

Also, there are many schools of thoughts on whether to ferment in the barrel or not, and I am not inherently stuck to one way, though I have a plan I've come up with.

 

As for barrel preparation, there are also a lot of options, hot water, chemicals, etc. What I was actually thinking of doing, was draining what is currently in there, rinsing it out, refilling with filtered water, and then building a custom heat stick (electric element contraption) to fit through the bung hole, and use it to gradually heat up the water and hopefully bring it up to a boil (I will only be using 110v, so I know to heat up 60 gallons of water will take awhile, but I assume it will eventually be able to boil inside the wood barrel). I would want to let it boil for a good while (1 hour sufficient?), drain, and then use. I don't expect it to kill everything in there, but I want to have just a bit more control over the outcome.

 

What I am thinking of doing, is staggerring the brew days, especially if I end up doing this myself. I would start with 5 gallons, pitch the roselare blend, and ferment the 5 gallons in the barrel (yes, I know, huge headspace). The next week, I would brew 10 gallons, and pitch the wort into the barrel with the fermenting 5 gallons. The following week, do a double brew day, and put in 20 gallons of wort. Repeat again the following weekend with another 20, and then 10 gallons the following weekend for a total of 65 gallons.

 

This last step, I would split the fresh 10 gallons, pull out 5 gallons from the barrel that is fermenting, add in 5 gallons of the fresh, and then combine the 5 gallons pulled out with the last half of the fresh, and ferment in plastic or glass. As the ferment in the barrel winds down, begin topping off with the 10 gallons I have separate. I hope this last step makes sense. The purpose of the last step is to ensure that I have enough to top up the barrel with that is as close to what is already in the barrel.

 

I have been reading that pH is very important, and I tend to think a lot of that is explained in the book, so I will wait on those questions for now.

 

Does my plan sound reasonable, or am I totally off base?

[BlKtRe]

I've done all kinds of various things with barrels as most here know. You can ferment directly in the barrel for the first batch using multiple paks of Roeselare if you want. I did it once and Im on the fence if I will want to do it again for two reasons. 1) it will blow off and what a mess it made. 2) after the main blow off there was to much head space in the barrel. More head space will result in more acidic that you will want for the style (any style for that matter). If you do ferment in the barrel prepare for a mess and have some top up ready. I also DO NOT suggest making a starter for Roeselare or any other blended strains. The lab has specific blends of each yeast and bacteria in order to achieve the results WY suggests. I know some have made starters with that strain (including myself) but Id rather buy more paks. We use 4 paks per barrel when we pitch Brett. Seems the desired sourness level is not reached when making a starter. I hve actully sampled other Flanders where starters were made vs pitching direct and all of those most preferred direct pitch of Roeselare. 

 

Another option is to do your own mixed fermentation by doing a primary first using a high mash temp (156* is a good jump off point) adding a larger percentage of Carapils for for your long chain sugars and some Flaked Oats for glucan's to help aid in head retention. Seems lactic acid will blow off your foam rather quickly no matter the carb levels. Then add the various bacteria separately into the barrel and not use Roeselare at all. We done it both ways with good results. 

 

I see no issue with filling the barrel up over days. Just keep brewing until its full. Dont let a half empty barrel sit around until you get time to brew. Plan a few days to brew and fill it up. Again, the fuller the better for long term aging. More o2 = more acidic acid = more vinegar aroma and flavor. 

 

Barrel care. Id rather see you have your barrel full of something besides water. Water can eventually start to have mold issues and mold is unwanted. You can add sulphite and/or citric acid to the water for long term storage. Either way keep the mold out and the barrel full so staves dont dry out. They will and it wont take long at all. Remember though that sulphit's can kill some of the Brett that's in the wood. Some believe the most favored Brett is deep in the wood and sulphite solution wont kill that off. Just remember to rinse with hot water and you are golden. We rinse our yearly barrel in between batches and have another batch ready to fill the same day we keg off. A happy barrel is one that is always full of beer. That particular barrel is 8yrs old since we got it and 23yrs old when we got it. 

 

Solera. After the first year remove a portion of beer and drink it. Add back raw wort plus evaporation rate back into the barrel. We have found if we remove 20g and add back 30g of raw wort each year we are getting some nice offerings from our Flanders Red barrel. 

 

Anymore questions fire away. Im very passionate about sour barrel brewing. 

 

Oh, I wouldnt mess with the idea of trying to boil all that water. If you want to try it make some stream and only do it with the barrel half full. Then get it full of beer asap. 

Edited by BlKtRe, 28 November 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[BlKtRe]

Here is a pic of the mess. 

 

 

[gnef]

Oh man, that is a mess. Well, it was just a random thought, and after your input, it sounds like a bad idea for the barrel to gradually fill it.

 

I know you have a 55 gallon HDPE barrel that you use as well, so I may look in to that, though the more I think about it, I'd like to have a total of 65-70 gallons on hand to have enough for top off and other losses, so maybe two of the 55 gallon HDPE barrels would be good, ferment in both, then add to the barrel, and keg the remainder to keep as top off.

 

If I do this in the HDPE barrels first, I know I wouldn't be able to brew all of the wort at once. I think I could do a 10 gallon batch, put 5 into each HDPE barrel, ferment with a pack (or two) of roselare in each, then each subsequent week do 20 gallons until I have 70 gallons total fermenting across the two HDPE barrels. If I can do this with cheflamont and the other brewer, it should make it easier to get the full volume more quickly for fermentation.

 

That is good info about the water. Do you know off hand what ppm is needed and roughly how many grams of Kmeta to add per gallon? I can also look it up, but I'd like to have a point of reference.

 

That is an interesting idea bout the steam, though I don't know of an easy way to do that with the equipment I have. I may just stick with the Kmeta for storage, rinse, add hot water, rinse again, then add the beer when I have everything ready.

 

I have been wanting to do this for a while, so I hope to get started soon!

[BlKtRe]

How long do you think it would take to fill the barrel? Is there a way you guys can get together and brew up enough wort over a weekend? If you can that would be ideal. If its going to take over a month I do have concerns about the staves above the wort level would start to dry in that amount of time. The only concern I have about transferring from HDPE to the barrel is you need to be extra careful not to introduce ant o2 during the transfer. we also need to be careful about this during all of our transfers. 

 

We also do not add o2 to the raw wort when we add back into the Solera after a pull. We do however o2 when doing a separate Sac primary when we do mixed fermentation's. 

 

I'm not sure about the ppm of Kmeta. We always have a fresh batch ready to go the same day we keg the previous batch thats in the barrel. So we dont store barrels for later use. 

 

We do 60g batches. If we need to top up the head space in the barrel due to losses we can pop out a quick 5g for that purpose later. I think Id concentrate on a 60g vs 70g. Remember a whisky barrel is like 52 or 53g. Unless you got a wine barrel.

 

As far as PH goes. Our water works out well using Acidulated Malt in the mash. 

[gnef]

Well, a big part of the timing will come down to if I have to do this myself, or if I can get cheflamont and the other brewer to be a part of this (we all have young children, so time is the limiting factor for all of us).

 

My ideal, would be for me to brew 10 gallons, pitch the roselare, then the following weekend, we all do a double brewday, and add in the 60 gallons to the two HDPE fermentors, let it go, then once that is ready, transfer that to the barrel. 

 

I will look into the KMeta to figure out how much to add. I am thinking that I should empty the current water, rinse, and then refill, adding the appropriate amount of KMeta. I am not sure when I will be able to get around to do this, but hopefully soon, depending on the weather.

 

This whiskey barrel seems a bit on the larger side, considering our experience with it as a club (I believe for the RIS we put in first, we had 55 gallons brewed, and we came up short). I just don't want to be caught unprepared if I am to do this. I would much rather have extra than not enough to put into the barrel.

 

Do you mind sharing the recipe you've used for your Flanders Red?

[gnef]

Thought I would update this thread. We have decided to go through with the project, and I have started the first 10 gallons. 

 

I drained the barrel, and moved it into the beer room, which is a bit higher in temp than the walk-in temperature. I am also using the big blue HDPE barrel that a friend gave to me.

 

We used a flanders red recipe found online, I mashed high, and pitched with ECY20. I plan on brewing another 20 gallons tomorrow, adding it to what is already in the HDPE barrel. When cheflamont brews up his 20 gallons, he will bring it over to add into the HDPE barrel. The other brewer is going to use roselare on his 20 gallons, and we will add that first into the oak barrel, then add as much of the ECY20 fermented portion.

 

When we are ready to fill, right now the plan is to drain, rinse, then either use hot water, or add in 5 gallons of star san, get it mixed up, then drain before filling.