Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Stopped at the LHBS today... 2 Questions


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 12:37 PM

First, they were out of Special B which I will use to make some red beers. As a sub, I found CaraAroma which I have never used. I think the color was in the 130-140L range and it mentioned adding some good malt aroma character along with a deep, saturated red color. Since I have not used it, does anyone have any caveats? I would typically only use about 4-6 ounces of Special B in 5 gallons and assumed I could use CaraAroma in the same way. Thoughts?Also... in what styles do you guys assume that you MUST use pilsner malt instead of a standard 2-row base malt or pale ale malt? I'm just curious. A pilsner, a helles and a kolsch come to mind for sure. It seems like "pilsner malt" goes hand in hand with "lagers" but what about your oktobers, viennas, dunkels, marzens, bocks, etc. where the delicate pils character would probably be lost and the pilsner would not be the center of attention like it would be in a pils, helles or kolsch? What about a red lager, amber lager, etc?Cheers!

#2 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 12:45 PM

I think brauer is the one who likes CaraAroma. Maybe he'll chime in. My guess is that any differences would be fairly subtle. But who knows?

 

I would use pilsner malt in any of the above styles you mentioned. I haven't made many of them but I guess that in general I like the flavor of pils better than 2-row anyways.



#3 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:33 PM

I find special b brings dried fruit (think raisin) type flavors.  it doesn't sound like caraaroma is like that.

 

I love pilsner malt.  I think you are on the right track though - if pilsner is just a small part of the recipe that otherwise has lots of munich or vienna you could probably get away with pale 2-row.  I recently used pilsner in that pale ale drez gave me the recipe for.  it works very well.  I can get why people might use pils in all kinds of styles other than lagers and beers that typically use it.



#4 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:46 PM

I know that in the past I might make a red lager or a dark Mexican lager, etc. where pilsner malt wouldn't be the focal point so I used Rahr Pale Ale instead and I'm sure that the beer didn't suffer for it. I have some things coming up (a dunkel for one) where I planned to use some pils but I just wonder if it should really be pils or if plain 2-row would be okay since the majority of the grain bill is munich. I'm just bouncing this around. Thanks.

#5 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:55 PM

Are you out of pils or trying to save money?



#6 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:14 PM

No. I have a full sack of Avangard Pils, enough Best Malz Pils for another batch and I just picked up a full sack of Rahr Pale Ale malt today and still have enough of the current bag for another 2 batches, probably. The point is... I don't want to use pils where it's not necessary because I want to have it when it is necessary and I make a lot of pilsners or pils-like beers, helles and kolsch. It's not as much that I don't know how to navigate this as much as it's a question about how others apply various grains to various recipes.

#7 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:38 PM

Ah. I get it.

 

I would be leary about replacing with the Rahr Pale Ale. To me it has a pretty distinctive flavor I would not expect in those styles. The flavor of regular 2-row will probably be fine and get lost behind the more characterful stuff.



#8 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:51 PM

So maybe something like a Red Lager with 5 lbs of pils, 3 lbs of Munich or vienna, maybe some wheat, small amounts of Special B, etc. Or my Mexican Dark Lager which is similar... 5 lbs of pils, 3-4 lbs of Munich, flaked corn, carafa, etc. Those 5 lbs of pils in those recipes could probably be Rahr Pale Ale malt without much difference. The Rahr is deeper and maltier (a bit) so maybe lower the mash temp or something but there is no real reason that pils would have to be there like it would in kolsch, helles, pilsner.

#9 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:03 PM

Those 5 lbs of pils in those recipes could probably be Rahr Pale Ale malt without much difference.

Haven't done it so… But I think I could tell the difference. Not that it would be unpleasant, just not the same.



#10 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:29 AM

I find special b brings dried fruit (think raisin) type flavors.  it doesn't sound like caraaroma is like that.

 

I love pilsner malt.  I think you are on the right track though - if pilsner is just a small part of the recipe that otherwise has lots of munich or vienna you could probably get away with pale 2-row.  I recently used pilsner in that pale ale drez gave me the recipe for.  it works very well.  I can get why people might use pils in all kinds of styles other than lagers and beers that typically use it.

I would use it in all the ones you list and a few more.  At noted above I like to use Pils malt in my pale ales and IPAs and even wheat beers.  I think I am odd in that respect though.



#11 matt6150

matt6150

    Moderately Accelerated Member

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10544 posts
  • LocationMooresville, NC

Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:45 AM

I would use it in all the ones you list and a few more. At noted above I like to use Pils malt in my pale ales and IPAs and even wheat beers. I think I am odd in that respect though.

I'm curious what you see different using Pils in those beers? I don't think its odd just wondering the differences/advantages?

#12 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:06 AM

I'm curious what you see different using Pils in those beers? I don't think its odd just wondering the differences/advantages?

Yeah, this was my original thought for the distinguished members of the panel. At what point do you decide that pilsner is used and standard 2-row base malt is used? I am not questioning any of the responses but trying to get a feel for other people's approach. I could see someone saying that a blonde ale could use pils where others would not. I had someone give me a good-looking kolsch recipe (with pilsner and wheat) and I said I would use 2-row base malt instead and I thought he was going to jump through the interwebs at me. Do people go with the idea the pils would lend a drier, crisper character than say Rahr Pale Ale malt? Good discussion.

#13 ChicagoWaterGuy

ChicagoWaterGuy

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3234 posts
  • LocationChicago

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:28 AM

Rahr Pale is double the color of Best Pils. That would effect flavor and color of the finished beer. 



#14 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:33 AM

Pilsen def has a distinct character and if it's what you are expecting there is no substitute.

#15 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:37 AM

Rahr Pale is double the color of Best Pils. That would effect flavor and color of the finished beer.

This. It has a deeper richer more crackery malt flavor that I tend to associate with pale ales of the 90's. (though not entirely correct)

#16 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:48 AM

Rahr Pale is double the color of Best Pils. That would effect flavor and color of the finished beer.

This. It has a deeper richer more crackery malt flavor that I tend to associate with pale ales of the 90's. (though not entirely correct)

Yes but in the examples I gave, it was only 50% or so of the grain bill and the beers are already dark. See my point?

#17 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:49 AM

I'm curious what you see different using Pils in those beers? I don't think its odd just wondering the differences/advantages?

I do notice a difference and prefer the pils. 

For my standard APA I use the following grain bill

 

72% Pils

24% Marris Otter

4% Caravienne/crystal 20

 

I have done the same beer with two-row in the place of the pils and changed nothing else and did not like the final beer as much.  For me the pils lets the beer finish a bit drier and let the hops come through more and that is what I like.



#18 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:58 AM

I do notice a difference and prefer the pils. For my standard APA I use the following grain bill 72% Pils24% Marris Otter4% Caravienne/crystal 20 I have done the same beer with two-row in the place of the pils and changed nothing else and did not like the final beer as much.  For me the pils lets the beer finish a bit drier and let the hops come through more and that is what I like.

I could see a dryness or crispness with pils over standard 2-row but I wonder if that could be addressed with mash temp in certain applications. Maybe mash a little bit lower. I see this point. Someone once mentioned using domestic 2-row base malt for everything. When they made something like an "American Lager", they used 2-row base malt instead of pils because pilsner supposedly "had too much European flavor" that American beer drinkers would not enjoy or find familiar-tasting. I probably wouldn't go that far.

#19 HVB

HVB

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 18047 posts

Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:06 AM

I could see a dryness or crispness with pils over standard 2-row but I wonder if that could be addressed with mash temp in certain applications. Maybe mash a little bit lower. I see this point. Someone once mentioned using domestic 2-row base malt for everything. When they made something like an "American Lager", they used 2-row base malt instead of pils because pilsner supposedly "had too much European flavor" that American beer drinkers would not enjoy or find familiar-tasting. I probably wouldn't go that far.

For the beer I posted I mash around 149.  I am not sure I want to go lower than that, I could, I just see having to extend the mash longer.



#20 ChicagoWaterGuy

ChicagoWaterGuy

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3234 posts
  • LocationChicago

Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:07 AM

Yes but in the examples I gave, it was only 50% or so of the grain bill and the beers are already dark. See my point?

50% of your grainbill will have a different flavor. I'd say that would be significant. It doesn't mean it would be better or worse but it would be noticeably different. 50% Pils vs 50% Pale, I'm sure you could taste the difference if you tasted them side by side.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users