39 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

People: I have a dry hop question.I put a keg of a sort of Sam Adams Boston Lager on tap last night and I would like to give it some dry-hop oomph. The keg is already cold and carbed. I mentioned elsewhere that I heard that dry hopping at room temp is better than at colder temps because of vegetal flavors, extracting oils, etc. So does it seem reasonable to take this keg out of the fridge to let it warm up, drop an ounce of Hallertau or Tettnanger in there for 4-5 days or so and then get it cold again and get it back on tap? I'm expecting some of you to say that I could just do it with the beer cold but I think I have experienced this vegetal character when doing this and just thinking that the addition of the dry hops (when I added the hops to a cold keg) was not as stellar as I had hoped. What would you do here?

[positiveContact]

I'd do it cold.  I like to avoid temp cycling beer.

[Big Nake]

I generally prefer to keep it cold too but I have asked before whether taking a beer out the fridge (for whatever the reason) and letting it warm up and then putting it back into the fridge was acceptable and I got an overwhelming YES. I wonder what the bigger downside would be... dry hopping cold or allowing the temp to swing.A convincing conversation HERE to NOT dry hop "cold".

Edited by Village Taphouse, 23 January 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[positiveContact]

I generally prefer to keep it cold too but I have asked before whether taking a beer out the fridge (for whatever the reason) and letting it warm up and then putting it back into the fridge was acceptable and I got an overwhelming YES. I wonder what the bigger downside would be... dry hopping cold or allowing the temp to swing.A convincing conversation HERE to NOT dry hop "cold".

 

most of what I'm seeing there is anecdotal data.  is there a specific post you are referring to?

 

what's funny is one guy specifically calls out Columbus as a problem when dry hopping cold.  I had two kegs of denny's RIPA.  I actually dry hopped one of them cold.  then that keg was done I dry hopped the other warmer to see if I would like it better.  I def did not.  this is a recipe I've made a bunch of times so I'm pretty familiar with the results.  I found the warm dry hopping to be kind of harsh or something.  it gave the beer a sort of unpleasant off flavor and I don't know if it's b/c I temp cycled the beer or if it was the hopping method or what.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 23 January 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[positiveContact]

I have dry hopped in primary a couple of times and liked the results.  maybe I like warm dry hopping okay if there is some fermentation interaction but I don't if there is not.  not enough data points to compare them yet - what I can say is that I've dry hopped cold a lot of times and not gotten any vegetal flavors out of it.  you could argue that I get less flavor/aroma but it's hard to say without a side by side.

[Big Nake]

When I have noticed an unpleasant flavor it's been when the beer was dry hopped cold in the keg. A sort of dirty-sock + vegetal flavor. This, combined with the information from my friend the commercial brewer plus the comments in that link (I'm not referring to a specific post as much as the way the thread leans on the whole) make me think there is something to it. I have taken this keg out to warm up and replaced it with another keg of my Ultra Blonde. I will let the other one warm up until tomorrow and then hit it with dry hops for 4-5 days and then sample it to see how it comes out.

[positiveContact]

When I have noticed an unpleasant flavor it's been when the beer was dry hopped cold in the keg. A sort of dirty-sock + vegetal flavor. This, combined with the information from my friend the commercial brewer plus the comments in that link (I'm not referring to a specific post as much as the way the thread leans on the whole) make me think there is something to it. I have taken this keg out to warm up and replaced it with another keg of my Ultra Blonde. I will let the other one warm up until tomorrow and then hit it with dry hops for 4-5 days and then sample it to see how it comes out.

 

I almost posted before that I'm not sure why you are asking.  It seems like you've already made up your mind.

 

I don't mind which ever way you want to do it but I just don't want to waste my time discussing the matter if it's all moot.  further research just shows me that different people seem to have different opinions.  this goes for pros and homebrewers alike.  I'd recommend trying both ways if you can and see what you think is better.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 23 January 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[neddles]

I will say I dont think cold or warm matters much. Were it mine I would just put the ounce in the keg and keep it cold. A cold extraction of componds you dont get with a warm extraction doesnt intuitively make sense to me. I still think vegetal flavors are from shitty hops and when people get them they blame whatever process they used at the time. Thats my $0.02

[positiveContact]

I will say I dont think cold or warm matters much. Were it mine I would just put the ounce in the keg and keep it cold. A cold extraction of componds you dont get with a warm extraction doesnt intuitively make sense to me. I still think vegetal flavors are from shitty hops and when people get them they blame whatever process they used at the time. Thats my $0.02

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it took longer to extract hop oils at cold but when I'm cold dry hopping the hops stay in the keg until it kicks so it's not an issue.  if you really wanted to get the hop oils out faster warm makes sense and it could be the reason that many pros recommend it or at least say that's how they do it.

[Big Nake]

I'd recommend trying both ways if you can and see what you think is better.

I guess that's what I'm doing because I have added hops to cold kegs before and although I could taste a 'difference' in the beer, I wasn't exactly charged up about that difference. If I dry hop in the keg like that, I always use new pellets that are in an oxygen-purged, vacuum-sealed bag with the hope that I'm using good hops for dry hopping. With all of the conversations we have had about they way hops act when in contact with different temps I would think there could be some meat to the idea that dry hopping at warmer temps is good or at least different than at cold temps. FWH additions act a certain way, whirlpool hops work well at the 165-175 range, etc. so there could be something there. The last 10-12 times I have dry hopped it was in a cold keg and it just has not been that impressive to me.

[neddles]

I guess that's what I'm doing because I have added hops to cold kegs before and although I could taste a 'difference' in the beer, I wasn't exactly charged up about that difference. If I dry hop in the keg like that, I always use new pellets that are in an oxygen-purged, vacuum-sealed bag with the hope that I'm using good hops for dry hopping. With all of the conversations we have had about they way hops act when in contact with different temps I would think there could be some meat to the idea that dry hopping at warmer temps is good or at least different than at cold temps. FWH additions act a certain way, whirlpool hops work well at the 165-175 range, etc. so there could be something there. The last 10-12 times I have dry hopped it was in a cold keg and it just has not been that impressive to me.

How big, typically, were the dry hop additions on those 10-12 beers? Just an ounce or two can be subtle depending much on the variety.

[Big Nake]

How big, typically, were the dry hop additions on those 10-12 beers? Just an ounce or two can be subtle depending much on the variety.

Usually 2 ounces and typically medium-alpha varieties like Santiam, EKG, Perle, Mt. Hood or lower-alpha varieties like Hallertau, Tettnanger, Spalt, Liberty, etc. I meant to ask BlKtRe about the 3-5 days thing and whether that applied to higher-alpha hops, a larger addition of hops (2, 3, 4, 5 ounces at a time), etc. I will say that these additions I made were not just "weak" or something... like I needed more time or more hops. The additions made a difference and did boost the hop presence but also brought on something that I did not care for and vegetal would be a description that seems accurate. I don't have access to a lot of Siebel-educated brewers but the brewer who gave me the Amarillo-Citra recipe and the owner of his brewery are both Siebel guys and they agree on this. I do have one other local brewer who went to *some* Siebel classes and I am going to ask him too.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 23 January 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[positiveContact]

just be wary - what works or doesn't work for the pros doesn't always hold true for us.  only you can decide what works at your place.  I found pros saying they thought that cold was better for aroma (long term) than warm.

 

from the probrewer website:

 

Loose pellets In the BBT before transfer, the BBT has a stand pipe to keep hops out of the draft line. They get thoroughly mixed into the beer during the transfer and even more while carbing. Once settled on the bottom of the tank the beer that is drawn into the draft line has been sitting directly over the hops. Keeps a fresh dryhop flavor for the 3-4 weeks it takes to sell the tank.I just feel dryhopping in the FV is a inefficient use of hops, yes I do agree that warmer temps work better in the short term but that aroma always seems to fade rather quickly. Also, even if you dump your yeast before DH'ing (esp. if you DH warm) more yeast will eventually settle on top of the hops in the cone... So, I really can't imagine getting more than a couple to a few days, max, of actual contact time, and even during that time very little surface area exposed due to the stacking of hops that would surely occur in the cone- at least if done, as i assume most of here do, in a conical primary.The "Torpedo Process" on the other hand is the best of both IMHO. Circulation, surface area, warm, and cold. mmm, torpedo...

 

Edited by Evil_Morty, 23 January 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[denny]

BrewWho mentioned dry hopping in another thread and I mentioned that I'm trying to get better at it. I don't have a lot of experience with it but I will do it occasionally. First, the timeline has always been confusing for me and the timing to get the beer to the taps can be tricky too because you really want the beer on tap while the dry hop character is fresh. In the thread about the recipe I got from a commercial brewer, he mentioned that adding dry hops to cold beer in a keg can bring out much more vegetal character (my experience) than when you add hops to room-temp beer. Also, adding the hops to room temp beer brings out much more of the essential oil that you want. I have never heard this. So what other pearls of wisdom do you guys have? How long do you leave the dry hops, is there some wiggle-room? Pellets or whole/leaf hops? I always have pellets [only] and would probably use them here too. Does the timeframe change based on how many hops you're adding as a dry hop? What happens with multiple dry hops? Give me your dry hop bullets, if you please.

 

Ken, you're caught in the trap that many homebrewers get into..thinking that there's only one way to dry hop and that a particular commercial brewer has the answer.  In direct opposition to your friend is research recently done at S.S. Steiner, the world's largest hop wholesaler.  Their research found that it appears that 35F for a week or 2 is the best way to go.  My own experience dry hopping hundreds of batches in the serving keg is that cold dry hopping will not give you a vegetal character.  what I'm getting at is to not assume that ANY of these opinions are the one and only way to do things.  MANY methods work great.  Try different things and make your own reality! 

[HVB]

Ken, you're caught in the trap that many homebrewers get into..thinking that there's only one way to dry hop and that a particular commercial brewer has the answer.  In direct opposition to your friend is research recently done at S.S. Steiner, the world's largest hop wholesaler.  Their research found that it appears that 35F for a week or 2 is the best way to go.  My own experience dry hopping hundreds of batches in the serving keg is that cold dry hopping will not give you a vegetal character.  what I'm getting at is to not assume that ANY of these opinions are the one and only way to do things.  MANY methods work great.  Try different things and make your own reality! 

Something new I have not heard but interesting.  May have to do a split batch and compare.

[Big Nake]

Based on that my current experiment of adding the hops in the room-temp keg should tell me something.

[denny]

Based on that my current experiment of adding the hops in the room-temp keg should tell me something.

 

Yep.  Next time, try splitting the batch and do one half room temp and the other half cold.

[Big Nake]

Okay more questions:For those of you who make a lot of late-hopped/dry hopped beers, when you put that beer on tap (or in bottles, I suppose), do you have a timeframe in mind for how long that hop character will hold up? What is the lifespan of that beer? Also, for guys who have 10 taps or something, how do you keep these dry-hopped beers fresh and rotating? Are you just guzzling beer all the time? On that same note... when a beer is hopped earlier in the boil, halfway through the boil and later in the boil... at what point do you have to worry about the character of the hops? IOW, if I make a beer where all the IBUs come with a 60-minute hop addition (beginning of the boil), does that beer keep its hop character (which is just bitterness) because the hops were added early in the boil whereas a beer with a 30-minute, 15-minute, 2-minute, etc. will start to lose that hop character because the hops were added later? I made an Amarillo-Citra pale ale last year (an early bittering addition and then 2 ounces each of Amarillo & Citra added in the last 5 minutes) and I usually don't drink it because my wife likes it. So it was on tap and I told her to drink it because it would lose its mojo quickly. I don't remember how long it was on tap but at some point she said, "This beer is starting to taste bad now". I said, "Bad or just not as fresh and hoppy as it was?". She said it was just not as fresh and hoppy and I'd bet that beer was on tap for 2+ months. She doesn't drink beer all the time so you just don't know.

[denny]

I dry hop in the keg and the hops stay in 2-3 months until it's gone.

[positiveContact]

I dry hop in the keg and the hops stay in 2-3 months until it's gone.

 

i do the same.  i feel like it helps maintain the hop levels for longer.