53 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Does anyone have a calculator they like?  Any tips for someone that is more or less new to performing this procedure?

 

Since I know a lot of you use coleman xTreme coolers (70qt) does anyone have any information they'd like to share?  In the past it always seems I undershoot but I haven't kept any reliable notes to figure out what I should be doing in the future since I do step mashes so infrequently.

 

Thanks all.

[HVB]

I will be interested to see where this goes.  I have heard and read that step mashes are not as beneficial today with the more modified malts.  I have only done one or two step mashes and those were for sour beers.

[positiveContact]

I will be interested to see where this goes.  I have heard and read that step mashes are not as beneficial today with the more modified malts.  I have only done one or two step mashes and those were for sour beers.

 

as far as conversion is concerned I absolutely agree.  I'm not really sure one way or the other about if I could more tightly control the body and/or sweetness of the final product by doing this.  brauer said he does a step mash for that ayinger dunkel clone and I'm inclined to follow his lead there.  he really likes those styles of beers and brews them a lot.

[SchwanzBrewer]

https://www.brewersf...quick-infusion/

 

I've found this one to be accurate. Had to do a step mash on the DCRIPA because the grain was so cold I only got the temp to 140 with the mash in. Added my boiling water and did a second step at 152. No problem.

[positiveContact]

https://www.brewersf...quick-infusion/

 

I've found this one to be accurate. Had to do a step mash on the DCRIPA because the grain was so cold I only got the temp to 140 with the mash in. Added my boiling water and did a second step at 152. No problem.

 

what kind of mash tun do you have?

[SchwanzBrewer]

what kind of mash tun do you have?

 

metal one wrapped with insulation.

 

I've done it in the cooler and it worked fine. 

[positiveContact]

metal one wrapped with insulation.

 

I've done it in the cooler and it worked fine. 

 

I sometimes wonder if my troubles in the past have been due to the cooler absorbing a lot of additional heat.

 

the way I currently strike in is to let the cooler and strike water get close to equilibrium and then put the grain in.  I'm usually about +/- 0.5F of the temperature I was shooting for with this method.  the downside with this method is I don't  have a good sense of the thermal properties of my cooler.

[Big Nake]

I agree that this is a PITA for anyone who doesn't have a direct-fired MT. I have done a few of these 145x30 and then 160x60 mashes where I started with 3 gallons of water heated to a certain temp to hit 145 and then 1.5 gallons of boiling water magically brought me to 159-160° and at that point I just started dancing in the kitchen because it was luck. Not only would I like to see a reference but I would also like to see what the different mash stops are supposed to do for me 120, 130, 140... I see a bunch of rests that people take and I don't understand their function.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 22 January 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[neddles]

as far as conversion is concerned I absolutely agree.  I'm not really sure one way or the other about if I could more tightly control the body and/or sweetness of the final product by doing this.  brauer said he does a step mash for that ayinger dunkel clone and I'm inclined to follow his lead there.  he really likes those styles of beers and brews them a lot.

A question for you and Brauer, or anyone that can answer it.

 

Lets say make two beers from the same recipe and identical in process except for the mash schedule. The first is a mash is conducted with both a beta and an alpha rest, for example, a mash with steps at 145F for X amount of time and the raised to 158F for X amount of time. The second mash is just a single temperature infusion mash at say 152F. Both beers finish at 1.010 after fermentation.

 

What differences would one expect to discern between the two beers and why?

[positiveContact]

A question for you and Brauer, or anyone that can answer it.

 

Lets say make two beers from the same recipe and identical in process except for the mash schedule. The first is a mash is conducted with both a beta and an alpha rest, for example, a mash with steps at 145F for X amount of time and the raised to 158F for X amount of time. The second mash is just a single temperature infusion mash at say 152F. Both beers finish at 1.010 after fermentation.

 

What differences would one expect to discern between the two beers and why?

 

I think one problem with your thought experiment is I'm not sure they'd both finish at the same gravity.  I think the idea is that the step mashed beer would have similar body to the single infusion but actually finish with a lower FG.  I'm really not sure though.

[Big Nake]

What differences would one expect to discern between the two beers and why?

I usually hear that you will get a combination of things that seem opposite... malty + dry or something similar. Good depth and body but the FG finishes low. I have done 4 or 5 of these and didn't really notice that but this was before my better water and pH measures were securely in place.

[neddles]

I think one problem with your thought experiment is I'm not sure they'd both finish at the same gravity.  I think the idea is that the step mashed beer would have similar body to the single infusion but actually finish with a lower FG.  I'm really not sure though.

Select your single temperature mash such that it matches the fermentability of the multi temp mash. At some given temperature you're going to get the same FG, no?

 

Also how is it getting the additional body, assuming that is true?

Edited by nettles, 22 January 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[positiveContact]

Select your single temperature mash such that it matches the fermentability of the multi temp mash. At some given temperature you're going to get the same FG, no?

 

Also how is it getting the additional body, assuming that is true?

 

different types of sugars produced?  I'm really not sure.

[neddles]

different types of sugars produced?  I'm really not sure.

Me either, that's what I am trying to learn here.

[Big Nake]

This is one of those humbling areas of homebrewing where I realize how much I don't know. I have read thru threads where advanced brewers are discussing all of the scientific things that happen in the mash and at some point I just say, "I like beer" and walk away. I know it could be really helpful to understand all of it because the fine-tuning of things could translate really well in the glass of finished beer. But... I don't get most of it.I think there is something happening with this lower-temp-then-raise-the-temp mash schedule that must have to do with chains and how they're formed and how they're processed in the mash. You somehow get dryness from the lower temp (which suggests shorter, more easily-processed chains) and then more body from the higher temp which suggests longer chains or maybe that some of the chains remain longer as a result of the higher temp. Dunno.* Sits in the corner *

[positiveContact]

This is one of those humbling areas of homebrewing where I realize how much I don't know. I have read thru threads where advanced brewers are discussing all of the scientific things that happen in the mash and at some point I just say, "I like beer" and walk away. I know it could be really helpful to understand all of it because the fine-tuning of things could translate really well in the glass of finished beer. But... I don't get most of it.I think there is something happening with this lower-temp-then-raise-the-temp mash schedule that must have to do with chains and how they're formed and how they're processed in the mash. You somehow get dryness from the lower temp (which suggests shorter, more easily-processed chains) and then more body from the higher temp which suggests longer chains or maybe that some of the chains remain longer as a result of the higher temp. Dunno.* Sits in the corner *

 

don't fret ken.  I don't think you need to get all of the chemistry of what's happening to know "if I do this I get this" kind of knowledge and really that's all most of us will ever need.

[Big Nake]

don't fret ken.  I don't think you need to get all of the chemistry of what's happening to know "if I do this I get this" kind of knowledge and really that's all most of us will ever need.

I have always been a "just give it to me by the numbers!" kind of brewer. I do this and that happens. That's all I need to know. :DI was looking for some clarity on this just now and found myself reading a thread about various 'rests' and found a guy who says that on delicate styles like pilsner or helles he always does a 'protein' rest. This was in celcius and he was saying 5-10 minutes at 55°C which comes to about 131°F. He was saying that the foam is whiter, creamier and longer-lasting. Someone else mentioned that modern malts do no require any of this (something we see a lot of in homebrewing circles) but he insists that some of these steps are still relevant and still have an impact on the finished beer. Never did one nor do I understand what it actually does.More on that...A protein rest is done before a saccharification rest (resting your mash in the 148-158 °F range for ~60-90 minutes) by bringing your mash to 122-131 °F for ~20 minutes. Most malts do not require the use of a protein rest, as they have been well modified (a high degree of of breakdown during malting of the protein-starch matrix in the malted grain).Under-modified barley malt, or grists with a large percent (more than 25%) of wheat, oatmeal, unmalted grain, flaked barley or rye, will benefit from a protein rest. It will break down proteins and make the starches more accessible for conversion as well as making for a more effective runoff by breaking the large, gelatinous proteins into smaller chains.It also reduces chill haze-causing albumins and creates amino acids that the yeast can use for their growth and development. Using a protein rest on a grist that does not require one (with well modified malts), will contribute to a thin, watery beer.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 22 January 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[positiveContact]

I have always been a "just give it to me by the numbers!" kind of brewer. I do this and that happens. That's all I need to know. :DI was looking for some clarity on this just now and found myself reading a thread about various 'rests' and found a guy who says that on delicate styles like pilsner or helles he always does a 'protein' rest. This was in celcius and he was saying 5-10 minutes at 55°C which comes to about 131°F. He was saying that the foam is whiter, creamier and longer-lasting. Someone else mentioned that modern malts do no require any of this (something we see a lot of in homebrewing circles) but he insists that some of these steps are still relevant and still have an impact on the finished beer. Never did one nor do I understand what it actually does.

 

in the past it was about ending up with the right sort of proteins in the beer.  the right ones promote head retention and body, the wrong ones promote haze and probably some stability issues.  the general consensus seems to be these (protein rests) aren't required but then I always wonder if all of these things together are what makes a well made german lager so freakin' tasty.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 22 January 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[neddles]

This is my understanding of it. A protein rest breaks down the protein structure of the grain in order to make the starches more accessible. Undermodified malts have more of their starches locked up in the protein structure of the grain and benefit from this. Well modified malts don't have a prohibitive protein structure preventing access to the starches and therefor do not need the proteinases to break down their proteins any further. Doing so can negatively effect the proteins that contribute to head retention.

 

People claim all kinds of stuff must be done to achieve X or Y or Z. Some of it may be legit but plenty of it is complete bunk. That's why these things can be hard to ferret out.

[positiveContact]

This is my understanding of it. A protein rest breaks down the protein structure of the grain in order to make the starches more accessible. Undermodified malts have more of their starches locked up in the protein structure of the grain and benefit from this. Well modified malts don't have a prohibitive protein structure preventing access to the starches and therefor do not need the proteinases to break down their proteins any further. Doing so can negatively effect the proteins that contribute to head retention.

 

People claim all kinds of stuff must be done to achieve X or Y or Z. Some of it may be legit but plenty of it is complete bunk. That's why these things can be hard to ferret out.

 

def a lot of bad information out there.  claims are often made with no science to back it up.