19 replies to this topic

[neddles]

Need some thoughts on the following method. The advantage of it that I can see would be a controllable amount of souring. Disadvantages of it I will let you guys come up with. Any and all suggestions welcome.

 

1. Conduct mash to gravity and rack to a keg.

2. Pitch lacto starter made with grain in O2 free environment or commercial lacto (don't know which commercial strain is best, suggestions?) and purge the keg with CO2.

3. Hold keg at 115-120F for a few days or however long it takes to get the sourness/pH I am looking for. Use tap to sample to avoid opening the keg.

4. Boil 15 min with small hop addition and ferment with sacc/brett. (suggestions of which brett strain to use?)

 

Please discuss.

 

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I've been pleased with this method. It's similar but the wort gets boiled then the lacto added.

 

httpss://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hClp9huB1M

 

 

[neddles]

So from the video I am getting this...

 

1. Mash, boil 15 min with ~5 IBU.

2. Ferment with WY5335 (for 10million cell/ml use a 1L 1.020 medium) for 7 days (didn't see a ferm. temp recommended for this 7 day step?)

3. Pitch WY1007 and ferment to completion.

4. Bottle/keg/age in carboy with 1 million cells/ml WY5226 B. Lambicus.

 

Is this basically your procedure CWG? 

How long has it taken for you to get your desired brett character?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Yup, that's basically what I did. You get a lot of sourness pretty quickly. You do have to watch the ferm temp with 1007. It gets pretty fruity when in the mid to upper 60's. The brett takes a while to come out but it tastes great young without much brett character.

[neddles]

Yup, that's basically what I did. You get a lot of sourness pretty quickly. You do have to watch the ferm temp with 1007. It gets pretty fruity when in the mid to upper 60's. The brett takes a while to come out but it tastes great young without much brett character.

Thanks.

From the Wyeast website it looks like the 5335 will do as low as 60F but I would think the temp could greatly affect how quick it works and if it would be done in 7 days? . I'm sure I could do the lacto starter warmer but... how warm did you do the initial 7 days of lacto in primary? Did you just do the 7 days of lacto and then pitch the WY1007 or did you taste/check pH. etc.?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I did 7 days near 90F with a heat wrap. On day 7, I turned off the wrap and let it drop down to ambient before pitching 1007. My pH was 3.4/3.5 at pitching.

[neddles]

I did 7 days near 90F with a heat wrap. On day 7, I turned off the wrap and let it drop down to ambient before pitching 1007. My pH was 3.4/3.5 at pitching.

Great. Thanks for the guidance. I can get near 90 with my aquarium heater. I'll check pH before I pitch the 1007. Probably bulk age in a carboy with the brett and keg after 6 months or more. Glad to know the 1007 has no problem getting going with that low of a pH. I just pre-ordered all three bugs needed from RiteBrew so they will be uber-fresh when I get them. 

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

It should come out great!

[neddles]

Last Sat. I made a 1L 1.020 lacto starter which has been cooking away at 75F ever since. Intention is to go 1 week and then pitch into the wort as described above. Somebody school me here…The flask has a thin layer on the bottom that I am guessing is the lactobacillus but I guess could be trub settlement from the boiling of the starter wort. Do I chill and decant like I would with a yeast starter or do I pitch the whole mess? 

[neddles]

Last Sat. I made a 1L 1.020 lacto starter which has been cooking away at 75F ever since. Intention is to go 1 week and then pitch into the wort as described above. Somebody school me here…The flask has a thin layer on the bottom that I am guessing is the lactobacillus but I guess could be trub settlement from the boiling of the starter wort. Do I chill and decant like I would with a yeast starter or do I pitch the whole mess? 

Well I can't find a definitive answer to this and it looks like it really doesn't matter that much as long as I get the bulk of the bacteria in there so I think I am going to pitch the whole mess. Anyhow the starter wort tastes clean and lactic, very pleasant. Im going to mash and boil this one tonight. Any last thoughts before I jump in with this one?

 

6 Gallons

OG 1.032

IBU 5

SRM 2.3

 

67% Best Malz Pilsner

33% Briess Red Wheat

90 min. mash at 150F 

 

Santiam @15 min for 5 IBU

15min boil

 

WY5335 starter pitched and fermented at 90F for ~1 wk. (pending taste and pH sample)

 

Then pitch WY1007 and ferment at 60F to completion.

 

Rack to 2º with Brett lambicus and let it work it's magic for 6-9 months. Keg and condition.

Edited by nettles, 18 March 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I too would pitch the whole lacto starter. Make sure to get it down to 60 before you pitch the yeast. That strain gets super fruity if it ferments too warm.

[neddles]

Very cool. This lacto fermentation is rocking away at 90F right now. Took off about 6 hrs after pitching and acts much like a sacc ferment. Nice krausen, bubbling away vigorously, good clean smells coming from the airlock.

 

If I wanted to save a little lacto for another batch (instead of buying another WY53335 pack) could I simply suck a bit out with a turkey baster and squirt it right into a new starter wort? I'm thinking about making a second (quicker) version of this Berliner sans brett.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Very cool. This lacto fermentation is rocking away at 90F right now. Took off about 6 hrs after pitching and acts much like a sacc ferment. Nice krausen, bubbling away vigorously, good clean smells coming from the airlock.

 

If I wanted to save a little lacto for another batch (instead of buying another WY53335 pack) could I simply suck a bit out with a turkey baster and squirt it right into a new starter wort? I'm thinking about making a second (quicker) version of this Berliner sans brett.

sounds about right. 

[neddles]

Very cool. This lacto fermentation is rocking away at 90F right now. Took off about 6 hrs after pitching and acts much like a sacc ferment. Nice krausen, bubbling away vigorously, good clean smells coming from the airlock.

 

Im really disturbed right now. I calibrated my pH meter today so I could get a pH reading on this batch. When it reaches 3.35-3.4 I am supposed to pitch WY1007 to eat up the sugar the lacto didn't eat. I pulled a sample tonight and the gravity is 1.004. Where's the sugar? So I taste it. Dry, slightly bitter and a little funky but no lactic/sour/tart flavor at all. Doesn't taste particularly good. Checked the pH 4.14. WTF!?

 

As noted above the starter was cleanly lactic and tasty. All I can come up with is that this is got infected with something else. Honestly I am not sure how. I have never made an infected beer before and hence have a lot of confidence in my cleaning and sanitation. Since I knew the lactobacillus would be alone in there at 90F for a week I was extra careful with my cleaning and sanitation and even oxiclean-ed the carboy twice before sanitizing. 

 

Again as noted above fermentation got going quickly after pitching the lacto so it seems there should have been *some* lactic acid production in there. I got nothing. Really disturbed by this right now.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

That sucks. It might be time for some new tubing. When I did mine, the lactic only took the gravity down a couple of points. 

[HVB]

What do you think it could be?  Brett?  Brett would take it down that far but not sure if a small amount could take it down that quick.  Do you get any flavors from the sample that can help you?

[neddles]

That sucks. It might be time for some new tubing. When I did mine, the lactic only took the gravity down a couple of points.

That's exactly what i was expecting. See below on the tubing.

What do you think it could be?  Brett?  Brett would take it down that far but not sure if a small amount could take it down that quick.  Do you get any flavors from the sample that can help you?

Well here is the maddening part. I made a saison recently with WLP670. First beer I have used brett for. I racked it to a brand new better bottle to 2º with the brett and then replaced all my plastic racking canes, hoses and thief afterwards thus permanently establishing separate plastic parts for clean vs. brett beers. And they all reside in separate cleaning buckets when not in use. I have a large auto-siphon and hose that is for kettle to carboy transfers only. I use a medium sized auto-siphon and hose to rack beers after fermentation (if I'm not doing a closed transfer) So the cane and hose that took this beer from the kettle to the carboy has been used like 3 times on fresh unpitched wort only. Then it was cleaned and sanitized afterwards the same way I have been doing it for the last 3 years… with no problems.

 

In the end the wort from this beer touched the new-ish cane and hose mentioned above, the glass carboy (oxicleaned twice and sanitized with star san) and whatever was in the starter (tasted great just before pitching.).

 

Drez's question is what really has me puzzled. What was it that took off and started fermenting this beer in 6 hrs. with a full krausen? 

 

As far as flavors go. It's thin, very dry, reminds me of a mead I made back in the day with champagne yeast… a rubbery dry weird flavor but without hot alcohols.

[HVB]

To me it does not sound like you have any of the classic brett flavors.  Need to think about this a bit more.

[neddles]

To me it does not sound like you have any of the classic brett flavors.  Need to think about this a bit more.

Please do, because I am at a ####ing loss for understanding what happened here.

[neddles]

This got progressively more gross tasting and was dumped. Im guessing it was brett of some sort. My conclusion is that it had to be something in the starter. The starter tasted good to me but maybe the lactic acid was hiding something else in the mix. The starter is the only way there could have been enough cells of anything to get a rolling fermentation going so fast. Still don't know how the starter got brett in it. Never had an infected starter or infected beer before. Guess there's a first for everything. I exercised the nuclear option on the carboy and it went back into service yesterday for the Hennepin like beer in the recipe section.

 

I will be trying this again soon.