Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The "faster" lager method(s)...


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 05 February 2015 - 06:19 PM

I'm checking in to see if anyone has done this "quick" version of a lager that we have discussed before.  Have any of you lager brewers done one of these 3-4 weeks (grain to glass) lagers by ramping up the temp part of the way through the primary fermentation?  There is a link HERE of a guy who has done it and says that the quality of the beer is very good and does not suffer from the schedule. I'm still doing the standard "long" primary, a bit of secondary and then kegging, carbing and leaving in the fridge for a good 2 months or so. I'm currently drinking a Red Lager I made in September. It's very good and nicely clear but I wonder if I could shorten the schedule. Cheers.

#2 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 05 February 2015 - 06:32 PM

I have done this for years. My U Fleku was brewed on 11-28, carbed and drinking on 12-29. Still improved a bit after lagering awhile but I still pulled pints.I almost started a thread about one technique I use to reduce/eliminate acetaldehyde and speed up the process.

#3 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 05 February 2015 - 06:38 PM

I have done this for years. My U Fleku was brewed on 11-28, carbed and drinking on 12-29. Still improved a bit after lagering awhile but I still pulled pints.I almost started a thread about one technique I use to reduce/eliminate acetaldehyde and speed up the process.

I would be interested to know your process as there seems to be some variation on how it goes. I know we have discussed this and I heard the part where Tasty McDole mentioned this on a podcast, etc. but as someone who has done it the standard way for years, I would love to hear your process in detail. I don't want to put pressure on you to post it all but when you have the chance, please just put some bullets up here and highlight the important parts of it. With my lager fridge controlled with a Johnson controller now (and with me working at home a lot) I could conceivably try this on an upcoming beer to see how well the process works. Thanks Chils... I was hoping you would check this thread. ;)

#4 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 05 February 2015 - 06:47 PM

I use the method for my kolsch, which is close enough. Turns out great beer. I think age does better for big beers where the alcohol flavor is a little to hot or the hops are a bit harsh. Other than clearning, lagering in anything other than a barrel doesn't really impart anything on the beer except mellowing of alcohols and bitterness.

I have done this for years. My U Fleku was brewed on 11-28, carbed and drinking on 12-29. Still improved a bit after lagering awhile but I still pulled pints.I almost started a thread about one technique I use to reduce/eliminate acetaldehyde and speed up the process.

 

DO IT!



#5 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 05 February 2015 - 06:53 PM

I pitch plenty of yeast as detailed in the drauflassen thread. My ferments are usually pitched at ~50F and start within 24hrs and finish up in 3-4 days. As the krausen drops, I raise the temp to 60F. It takes a few days for the temp to get there. No worries of off flavors b/c the yeast is done multiplying well before this time.I had a beer end up with acetaldehyde awhile back when I was doing regular starters--pre-drauflassen. I researched and found that acetaldehyde boils at 20.2°C/68.4 °F. I had a discussion with AJ Delange about it and he confirmed this. So, after a few days at 60F, I take a grav reading. If my ferment is done, I raise to 70F. It sits there for ~ 1 week to off gas acetaldehyde and speed up maturation.When the beer tastes good, I crash to 32F and let sit a week or so, then rack to keg and start carbing with my chamber set at 32F. Drink it when it's carbed and tasting good and it lagers in the keg. Usually takes ~2 weeks for carbonic bite to settle, then variable time lagering to taste best--but I still sneak the occasional pint.If I am unsure of the beer WRT off-flavors post-ferm, I'll put a little in a custard dish, cover with plastic wrap, and heat in the microwave. Open the wrap and take a big whiff. You'll know real quick if it needs more aging time. I don't chill until the beer tastes right.

Edited by chils, 05 February 2015 - 06:58 PM.


#6 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:09 PM

What is the "~2 weeks for carbonic bite to settle" part? What is your carb process?

#7 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:12 PM

I think that's the best reason for raising the ferm temp I've heard. Very good. 



#8 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:13 PM

What is the "~2 weeks for carbonic bite to settle" part? What is your carb process?

I hit it with 30psi and shut off the gas and let it reach equilibrium then hit it again everytime the CO2 is absorbed for a few days. Carbed in ~3days. It just never tastes right for a couple weeks from day 1 of carbing.

#9 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:14 PM

What is the "~2 weeks for carbonic bite to settle" part? What is your carb process?

 

I think that's about right. After 2-3 days post carb it's not as noticeable and certainly a better beer, but I'd agree that two weeks and it's gone. 


Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 05 February 2015 - 07:15 PM.


#10 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:14 PM

I think that's the best reason for raising the ferm temp I've heard. Very good.

I actually have to heat my chamber to get there. Before I had STCs, I'd heat up a couple of corn bags and throw in there.

#11 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:15 PM

I hit it with 30psi and shut off the gas and let it reach equilibrium then hit it again everytime the CO2 is absorbed for a few days. Carbed in ~3days. It just never tastes right for a couple weeks from day 1 of carbing.

Huh. I have heard that people who force carb VERY QUICKLY get carbonic acid/bite but I'm not sure I get that with my 25psi for 48 hour method. Although I should say that I don't immediately put those kegs on tap... they sit in on-deck fridge for awhile before being served.

#12 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:16 PM

Huh. I have heard that people who force carb VERY QUICKLY get carbonic acid/bite but I'm not sure I get that with my 25psi for 48 hour method. Although I should say that I don't immediately put those kegs on tap... they sit in on-deck fridge for awhile before being served.

 

Exactly. I get the carb bite like Chils describes and I use your 48 hour method.



#13 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:22 PM

I'll have to watch out for that. I definitely don't 'rush' to get beer to the taps so maybe it's less of an issue based on the schedule I try to follow. Another Q: Chils, you say your lagers ferment out in 3-4 days and then you raise the temp. The link I posted mentioned going about 5 days before raising the temp. I typically get fermentation starting in 24 hours or less and it continues [slowly] and I feel that it's still going after 5 days. I generally do not take gravity readings (which may have to change) but I assume there would be issues raising the temp if there was still some decent activity in the primary.

#14 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:28 PM

I'll have to watch out for that. I definitely don't 'rush' to get beer to the taps so maybe it's less of an issue based on the schedule I try to follow. Another Q: Chils, you say your lagers ferment out in 3-4 days and then you raise the temp. The link I posted mentioned going about 5 days before raising the temp. I typically get fermentation starting in 24 hours or less and it continues [slowly] and I feel that it's still going after 5 days. I generally do not take gravity readings (which may have to change) but I assume there would be issues raising the temp if there was still some decent activity in the primary.

After the krausen drops, the yeast has gone from the exponential growth phase(where off flavors from fermentation are produced, to the stationary phase, (clean up/maturation) phase where temp rise can be beneficial to speed maturation.Gotta have that krausen drop tho'

#15 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 06 February 2015 - 06:12 AM

Without ever using a 'rigid schedule', I'm not sure I could define a dropped kraeusen. The billowy yeast layer has calmed down and you might even be able to see the liquid underneath? I use plastic primaries so I generally have to pop the top on it to see what's up.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 06 February 2015 - 07:06 AM.


#16 BarelyBrews

BarelyBrews

    Frequent Member

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1631 posts
  • LocationMichigan

Posted 06 February 2015 - 06:45 AM

Without ever using a 'rigid schedule', I'm not sure I could define a dropped kraeusen. The billowy yeast layer has clamed down and you might even be able to see the liquid underneath? I use plastic primaries so I generally have to pop the top on it to see what's up.

 

I feel so lost with this Lager yeast (is there Lots of Kraeusen? i thought the yeast worked from the bottom Vs. The top?) I use the bucket method mostly myself. Got your red lager recipe going now mr. Ken...

 

I plan (per earlier discussion here) 7 days at 48 degrees, and 3 days at 68 , then back to 35 degrees for atleast 14 days. Then i will see what my keg situation(availability is ) and to keg it goes. I waited until i had airlock activity before i dropped it in the lager fridge.



#17 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 06 February 2015 - 07:10 AM

I feel so lost with this Lager yeast (is there Lots of Kraeusen? i thought the yeast worked from the bottom Vs. The top?) I use the bucket method mostly myself. Got your red lager recipe going now mr. Ken... I plan (per earlier discussion here) 7 days at 48 degrees, and 3 days at 68 , then back to 35 degrees for atleast 14 days. Then i will see what my keg situation(availability is ) and to keg it goes. I waited until i had airlock activity before i dropped it in the lager fridge.

Well, the lager yeast is working more "in" the liquid than above it or on top of it, I suppose but a lager fermentation still produces a kraeusen layer at the surface. I wonder if I could ferment in the fridge (my lager primary fridge is set to about 47°) for 5 days or so and then just take it out and leave it on the basement floor which is quite cool this time of year... around 60-65°... and then just let it sit there and finish up. I was under the impression that a lager yeast would start to throw some esters and/or off-flavors if any part of the active fermentation is occurring at higher-than-desired temps. Sounds like that is not the case. Chils, if I were to pop the top on my primary after 5 days in the fridge, what would I want to look for to determine if the kraeusen has dropped?EDIT: I just went down and checked on a gold lager that has been in the fridge since last Thursday (so about 8 days). I popped the top and there is a layer of kraeusen on the top of the beer and I cannot see liquid. My guess is that the vast majority of the fermentation has occurred because this was a good-sized pitch of healthy & active 2124. But I have no idea if this beer would be a candidate for being removed from the fridge now.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 06 February 2015 - 07:15 AM.


#18 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 06 February 2015 - 08:29 AM

I think the key to it all is taking gravity readings. It's annoying for homebrewers because they don't have a convenient way to do it. Pro brewers can use this method easily because they just take a sample off the port without opening things up.

 

Ken, I recommend getting some conicals so you can do this. :devil:



#19 Brauer

Brauer

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1857 posts
  • Location1 mile north of Boston

Posted 06 February 2015 - 10:09 AM

I think a Lager can benefit from some active fermentation, late, at higher temperatures. I get Lagers into the glass in ~4 weeksFerment at 48-52 F for ~5 days, when the fermentation is usually pretty slow, move to 60-62 F for a week. Keg and naturally carbonate for ~ 2 weeks, move to the fridge and tap. I'll usually wait a couple days to settle down, then taste it, but it typically takes a week to clear.I don't have problems with diacetyl or acetaldehyde in Lagers, but I have had that problem with Koelsch yeast. I think Lagers are easier (and tastier).

#20 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16523 posts

Posted 06 February 2015 - 11:15 AM

I think a Lager can benefit from some active fermentation, late, at higher temperatures.

Isn't that the basic idea behind krausening?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users