35 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Every once in awhile I run into an issue and it's almost always when I attempt to harvest and reuse yeast a number of times. This may happen once a year or so and it just happened to me over the weekend on a Marzen type of beer that I made with 2206. I sent it from primary to secondary and it had the slightest hint of a Belgiany character... which should certainly not be the case with 2206. I went ahead and racked it to secondary but I'm pretty sure I will not drink it. I remember when it was in primary... the aroma was awesome. I don't think this is an "infection" as much as I think there was a yeast mutation or something. The beer does not 'act' infected. It's as clear as can be, no activity whatsoever, nothing floating on the top of the beer, it's not gushing, etc. This was the 4th use of the 2206 which is my max. 3-4 times for the same blob of yeast is normal. So what am I seeing here? Yeast is one of those very mysterious pieces of brewing for me. Cheers.

[positiveContact]

could be a mutation.  could be something else all together like under or over pitching or just general yeast health producing undesirable flavors.  I'd lager it a bit and see how it ends up.

[Brauer]

You've been describing something for a while that has sounded like a wild yeast contamination somewhere in your process. You can sometimes get phenolics from some brewers yeast strains, other than Belgians, when they are stressed by things like underpitching, though. You can get similar flavors from chlorine, but usually they come across more as medicinal than "Belgiany".

[Big Nake]

Well, under- or overpitching should not be the case here because I always pitch plenty of the slurry I harvest and it goes into well-oxygenated wort.  A wild contamination sounds reasonable but my only conclusion would be that the primary was not clean and sanitized well enough.  I did recently pick up some new primaries so maybe it's time to retire a couple starting with this one (which now has a note on it:  CLEAN WELL).  I know that while it was fermenting that I took a hit off the airlock a few times and it smelled lovely.  The lid was on tight and the beer was under airlock the whole time so I can't see how else it could have happened other than something in the primary.  I clean my primaries with Oxi and very hot water (a long soak) and then it gets filled all the way with Starsan solution and sits for 20-30 minutes that way (I don't make one gallon and swish it around... I make 5 gallons of Starsan).  I guess I could describe it as phenolic and maybe medicinal but my first impression is "Belgian".  No offense intended towards the Belgians...

[SchwanzBrewer]

Could also be that by the 4th harvest enough wild yeast could have gained traction in the slurry and the aroma/flavors start to present themselves. If that's the case then it would make sense that the primary smells fine, but that belgian character comes on after a while. The sac yeast out performs the wild initially, but given enough time the wild yeast presents itself.

By the way, if you know someone with a lab, you could easily tell if you have wild yeast in your slurry. My friend just set up a lab and he could differentiate between wild yeast, sac yeast, and bacteria right away (he was trying to cultivate a native yeast).

[Big Nake]

Could also be that by the 4th harvest enough wild yeast could have gained traction in the slurry and the aroma/flavors start to present themselves. If that's the case then it would make sense that the primary smells fine, but that belgian character comes on after a while. The sac yeast out performs the wild initially, but given enough time the wild yeast presents itself.By the way, if you know someone with a lab, you could easily tell if you have wild yeast in your slurry. My friend just set up a lab and he could differentiate between wild yeast, sac yeast, and bacteria right away (he was trying to cultivate a native yeast).

Interesting and sounds totally reasonable. It would have to be something similar to what you describe about the wild yeast making itself known later in the process. I don't really have "infections" anymore where the beer smells like vinegar or has that vomit-like smell to it, etc. But I suppose this might as well be considered an infection because it ruined the beer. When I have had infections in the past the beer would show it... it remains hazy even after weeks in the secondary, bubbles are rising up in the secondary, etc. and that is not happening here.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Interesting and sounds totally reasonable. It would have to be something similar to what you describe about the wild yeast making itself known later in the process. I don't really have "infections" anymore where the beer smells like vinegar or has that vomit-like smell to it, etc. But I suppose this might as well be considered an infection because it ruined the beer. When I have had infections in the past the beer would show it... it remains hazy even after weeks in the secondary, bubbles are rising up in the secondary, etc. and that is not happening here.

 

I dunno. Worth looking at under a microscope though. If it's a native yeast it might be very slow acting and unique to your brewery and process. Or it might be a mutant. Would be cool to see mutant yeast under the scope!

 

[rant] BTW: pet peeve of mine... infected. Beer can not be infected. Only organisms can be infected. Beer gets contaminated with unwanted organisms and/or fermentation by products. [/rant]

[Big Nake]

I dunno. Worth looking at under a microscope though. If it's a native yeast it might be very slow acting and unique to your brewery and process. Or it might be a mutant. Would be cool to see mutant yeast under the scope! [rant] BTW: pet peeve of mine... infected. Beer can not be infected. Only organisms can be infected. Beer gets contaminated with unwanted organisms and/or fermentation by products. [/rant]

Got it. My beer is contaminated with something that tastes Belgian.

[Brauer]

Well, under- or overpitching should not be the case here because I always pitch plenty of the slurry I harvest and it goes into well-oxygenated wort.  A wild contamination sounds reasonable but my only conclusion would be that the primary was not clean and sanitized well enough.  I did recently pick up some new primaries so maybe it's time to retire a couple starting with this one (which now has a note on it:  CLEAN WELL).  I know that while it was fermenting that I took a hit off the airlock a few times and it smelled lovely.  The lid was on tight and the beer was under airlock the whole time so I can't see how else it could have happened other than something in the primary.  I clean my primaries with Oxi and very hot water (a long soak) and then it gets filled all the way with Starsan solution and sits for 20-30 minutes that way (I don't make one gallon and swish it around... I make 5 gallons of Starsan).  I guess I could describe it as phenolic and maybe medicinal but my first impression is "Belgian".  No offense intended towards the Belgians...

Every beer is infected, unless you sterilize every component in your system and have completely closed transfers. Other wise it is just a matter of degree. It gets more difficult to keep everything out the longer you brew, as things get established around your brewery/house that thrive on malt and films build up on equipment. Tubing and valves are particular culprits, but it could just be in your air.

 

The effects of underpitching can carry over from one batch to the next. If you make a beer with a small starter, the yeast can be nutrient starved toward the end of fermentation. You might make up for this as you pitch appropriate levels in subsequent beers, but you're always fighting uphill. Meanwhile, you're opening a hole for wild yeast to enter your process and out-compete your desired yeast. Over multiple batches, they will just become more abundant.

 

Learning to identify off-flavors is immensely useful when trying to diagnose things like this.  Saying that a flavor is Belgian is a little more helpful than saying that it's Cuban, but not that much. I assume you don't mean that it tastes like a Stella Artois. (I had a great Saison, once, that tasted Cuban. It was fantastic.)

[SchwanzBrewer]

Every beer is infected, unless you sterilize every component in your system and have completely closed transfers. Other wise it is just a matter of degree. It gets more difficult to keep everything out the longer you brew, as things get established around your brewery/house that thrive on malt and films build up on equipment. Tubing and valves are particular culprits, but it could just be in your air.

 

The effects of underpitching can carry over from one batch to the next. If you make a beer with a small starter, the yeast can be nutrient starved toward the end of fermentation. You might make up for this as you pitch appropriate levels in subsequent beers, but you're always fighting uphill. Meanwhile, you're opening a hole for wild yeast to enter your process and out-compete your desired yeast. Over multiple batches, they will just become more abundant.

 

Learning to identify off-flavors is immensely useful when trying to diagnose things like this.  Saying that a flavor is Belgian is a little more helpful than saying that it's Cuban, but not that much. I assume you don't mean that it tastes like a Stella Artois. (I had a great Saison, once, that tasted Cuban. It was fantastic.)

 

Bolded is very true. We get trained to try and use descriptors like spicy, peppery, band aid, plastic, medicinal, or clove like phenolics with fruity (apple/pear/peach/cherry/raisin/plum/date/pineapple/orange/lemon/lime/banana or even bubblegum) esters which is essentially your Belgian character.

[Big Nake]

I would describe this one as spicy, peppery, phenolic. Could be medicinal but probably not. Thanks gang. I was just talking with a few buds/brewers and I think that better "yeast management" will be my next priority.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I would describe this one as spicy, peppery, phenolic. Could be medicinal but probably not. Thanks gang. I was just talking with a few buds/brewers and I think that better "yeast management" will be my next priority.

 

Probably the only way to get better yeast management is to somehow do closed system transfers from your fermenters. I'm not sure how well it would work for lagers, but a krausening siphon into a sanitized flask would be easy enough to implement. Maybe you need to get the Mrs to OK a nice conical. Lagers, you'd really need a conical to do a closed harvest like the yeast traps you see on HBT. 

[Big Nake]

Probably the only way to get better yeast management is to somehow do closed system transfers from your fermenters. I'm not sure how well it would work for lagers, but a krausening siphon into a sanitized flask would be easy enough to implement. Maybe you need to get the Mrs to OK a nice conical. Lagers, you'd really need a conical to do a closed harvest like the yeast traps you see on HBT.

Well, I wasn't even referring to that part of it, just the volume especially at the starter point. I will say for the record that I have made my standard "small" starter and pitched it when it was active into well-oxygenated 50° lager wort and then used that yeast on 2-3 more batches all with stellar results. So I don't know if this is a volume issue as Brauer outlined or a mutation or an actual contamination. I try REALLY hard to keep my yeast-handling area and process as good as it can possibly be... I try not to breathe when I'm handling slurry. Also, I don't "SAVE" slurry ever, I just harvest it and repitch [some of] it on the same day so I can avoid problems with longer storage.

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, I'm guessing contamination or mutation. You and I have very similar tastes in beer and I get the Belgiany flavor in a few non-Belgian ales and 1 very popular lager. I won't mention which ones for fear of being tarred and feathered. I think our palates are fine tuned to it.

[djinkc]

Just guessing but I'll guess it's an over or underpitch.  You seem pretty meticulous with other stuff.  Plus most of your beers aren't going to hide flaws very well.  I've only had a couple dumpers in the last few years.  Harvested yeast in those.  When I'm not lazy I harvest from the starter, and save that for the next starter.

 

Plus, this beer isn't finished yet is it.  I've had plenty that I was concerned about when kegging that turned out fine.

[neddles]

Sure didn't get any hint of it in the beer you sent me, that beer was great. Were it me I would start by making starters that are bigger than your standard "small" starter. Go to https://www.yeastcalculator.com and put input your data and build the recommended starter size. The simple DME to water formula is 100g DME : 1L water. That ratio is extremely easy to scale up and down based on what size starter you want to build.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I'm guessing contamination or mutation. You and I have very similar tastes in beer and I get the Belgiany flavor in a few non-Belgian ales and 1 very popular lager. I won't mention which ones for fear of being tarred and feathered. I think our palates are fine tuned to it.

I have experienced this in various strains including 1056, 1968, 1028 and now 2206. These are all yeasts that I have used many times and it's clearly not a character of the yeast nor would I use a yeast like that on purpose. Also, it's often the 3rd or 4th use of the yeast which is why I brought up a 'mutation'. Very possible that it's something in the air here or even the same primary over and over which is why I plan to retire the recent offending primary and pick up a few others.  

Just guessing but I'll guess it's an over or underpitch.  You seem pretty meticulous with other stuff.  Plus most of your beers aren't going to hide flaws very well.  I've only had a couple dumpers in the last few years.  Harvested yeast in those.  When I'm not lazy I harvest from the starter, and save that for the next starter.Plus, this beer isn't finished yet is it. I've had plenty that I was concerned about when kegging that turned out fine.

I know a lot of people have written off MrMalty in favor of other calculators but I will consult MrMalty when I want to verify yeast volume. Because I make so many batches that are in the 5% zipcode, the volume of yeast is often very close from batch to batch. If I harvest on the day I pitch and set all the other controls accordingly (also slanting it towards thinner slurry and more non-yeast content), the scale slides between about 180ml and 290ml of yeast slurry and I'm usually pitching in the 300ml range which is not underpitching and I can't see it being considered overpitching. I think that possibility needs to be put to rest. As far as whether the beer is "done"... I have also had beers go from primary to secondary and smell "unusual" and the beer comes out fine. But I have gotten used to which smells are 'nothing to worry about' and which are more 'deadly'. This one seems like a bad one but we'll see. 

Sure didn't get any hint of it in the beer you sent me, that beer was great. Were it me I would start by making starters that are bigger than your standard "small" starter. Go to https://www.yeastcalculator.com and put input your data and build the recommended starter size. The simple DME to water formula is 100g DME : 1L water. That ratio is extremely easy to scale up and down based on what size starter you want to build.

Well, I would have never sent you beer from a batch that acted this way... for sure. I guess I will look into larger starters although I probably need a bigger flask because mine is only 1000ml. I was also looking into using some W34/70 and MJ M84 dry lager yeast (Chils and I were bouncing this around) but it sounds like the M84 needs a starter anyway. Thanks again gang... much appreciated.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 24 February 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[neddles]

Sure didn't get any hint of it in the beer you sent me, that beer was great. Were it me I would start by making starters that are bigger than your standard "small" starter. Go to https://www.yeastcalculator.com and put input your data and build the recommended starter size. The simple DME to water formula is 100g DME : 1L water. That ratio is extremely easy to scale up and down based on what size starter you want to build.

I should correct this as it's not entirely true. You want 100g of DME and then water added to it for a total volume (DME+water) of 1L. This is the ratio given in Zainascheff and White's Yeast.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Ken, I'll trade you a 2L flask for a couple bottles of MLPA that you're proud of.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I'll trade you a 2L flask for a couple bottles of MLPA that you're proud of.

LOL. Last night I sampled my latest batch of MLPA which was made with White Labs 01. It came out very nicely. I would be happy to send you some but I would hate to see you attempt to wrap up a 2 liter starter flask... oh, the packaging! :DOkay, so we either do this here or make another thread on it: I have never 'bumped up' a starter. Not once. I do the standard 650ml of water and ½ cup of DME, some nutrient, a little O2 through the stone and a White Labs vial or Wyeast pack and onto the stirplate where it foams and froths and then I pitch the whole thing into a 5%-ish lager or ale. Someone tell me what you do by the steps or point me towards a "starter bump-ups for Dummies" page if you know of one. And... how large of a starter (in milliliters of yeast) would you want for a 5% lager (more) or ale (less)? I know that I have heard to make a starter, wait, chill, decant, make another starter, wait, chill, decant, etc. but I don't know the specifics or any tricks.EDIT: I have stayed away from doing this for a couple of reasons: One is that I really dislike handling yeast. I assume that the more I handle it, the more likely it is that I'm going to futz it up. I would rather make the first starter and then get it into fresh wort quickly while it's active. The other reason is that I have made small starters as described above and pitched them into finesse beers like helles or pilsner and ended up with delicious lager beer without any signs of underpitching.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 25 February 2015 - 05:16 AM.