35 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Ken, I'm guessing contamination or mutation. You and I have very similar tastes in beer and I get the Belgiany flavor in a few non-Belgian ales and 1 very popular lager. I won't mention which ones for fear of being tarred and feathered. I think our palates are fine tuned to it.

 

are these commercial beers you are talking about?  if so I don't see why you'd be worried to give your opinion on them.  I know I wouldn't.

[neddles]

LOL. Last night I sampled my latest batch of MLPA which was made with White Labs 01. It came out very nicely. I would be happy to send you some but I would hate to see you attempt to wrap up a 2 liter starter flask... oh, the packaging! :DOkay, so we either do this here or make another thread on it: I have never 'bumped up' a starter. Not once. I do the standard 650ml of water and ½ cup of DME, some nutrient, a little O2 through the stone and a White Labs vial or Wyeast pack and onto the stirplate where it foams and froths and then I pitch the whole thing into a 5%-ish lager or ale. Someone tell me what you do by the steps or point me towards a "starter bump-ups for Dummies" page if you know of one. And... how large of a starter (in milliliters of yeast) would you want for a 5% lager (more) or ale (less)? I know that I have heard to make a starter, wait, chill, decant, make another starter, wait, chill, decant, etc. but I don't know the specifics or any tricks.EDIT: I have stayed away from doing this for a couple of reasons: One is that I really dislike handling yeast. I assume that the more I handle it, the more likely it is that I'm going to futz it up. I would rather make the first starter and then get it into fresh wort quickly while it's active. The other reason is that I have made small starters as described above and pitched them into finesse beers like helles or pilsner and ended up with delicious lager beer without any signs of underpitching.

https://www.yeastcalculator.com has inputs for up to 3 stepped starters. Keep using Mr. Malty for the slurry estimates. Plug the inputs in at the top and figure out which size starter(s) will get you to your desired cell count, or at least close. Build the first starter as I suggested above with the ratio of 100g DME:1L DME+water plus a pinch of nutrient. If you determine you need a 1.5L starter just scale up to 150g DME:1.5L DME+water. Scale down accordingly for a smaller starter. 

 

An example you want to ferment 5.5 gallons of 1.050 lager and you have a 6 wk. old vial of yeast. Plug all that in and build a starter of 1L then step it to a 2L and you will have an  estimated 490b cells and it says you need 386b cells. Make the starters a bit smaller if you want to get closer to the 386b number or what I would do is just go with the 490b cells. Or, I may go a little smaller to avoid maxing out my flasks. Either way, just get enough cells in there to know you are covered.

 

 I know that I have heard to make a starter, wait, chill, decant, make another starter, wait, chill, decant, etc. but I don't know the specifics or any tricks.

 

Its pretty much as you said right here, there are no real tips or tricks, just be sanitary.

Edited by nettles, 25 February 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Big Nake]

https://www.yeastcalculator.com has inputs for up to 3 stepped starters. Keep using Mr. Malty for the slurry estimates. Plug the inputs in at the top and figure out which size starter(s) will get you to your desired cell count, or at least close. Build the first starter as I suggested above with the ratio of 100g DME:1L DME+water plus a pinch of nutrient. If you determine you need a 1.5L starter just scale up to 150g DME:1.5L DME+water. Scale down accordingly for a smaller starter.  An example you want to ferment 5.5 gallons of 1.050 lager and you have a 6 wk. old vial of yeast. Plug all that in and build a starter of 1L then step it to a 2L and you will have an  estimated 490b cells and it says you need 386b cells. Make the starters a bit smaller if you want to get closer to the 386b number or what I would do is just go with the 490b cells. Or, I may go a little smaller to avoid maxing out my flasks. Either way, just get enough cells in there to know you are covered.  Its pretty much as you said right here, there are no real tips or tricks, just be sanitary.

Okay, my next purchase will probably be a bigger flask for starters. Btw, I just went and checked my notes regarding the helles that I sent to you. That was a first-run of Wyeast 2124 Bohemian lager yeast that was used in a small starter like I explained in my last post. No gargantuan starter, no bump-ups. Yes, the yeast was fresh, it was used in a starter and it was active when I pitched. That was a very tame beer that you would think would show flaws. I have another batch of that helles on tap right now (slightly different recipe but very close) which was ALSO a first run of 2124 and it's every bit as good as the one I sent to you. This is one reason I have not jumped into the "metric-buttload-of-lager-yeast-starter" world.

[neddles]

Okay, my next purchase will probably be a bigger flask for starters. Btw, I just went and checked my notes regarding the helles that I sent to you. That was a first-run of Wyeast 2124 Bohemian lager yeast that was used in a small starter like I explained in my last post. No gargantuan starter, no bump-ups. Yes, the yeast was fresh, it was used in a starter and it was active when I pitched. That was a very tame beer that you would think would show flaws. I have another batch of that helles on tap right now (slightly different recipe but very close) which was ALSO a first run of 2124 and it's every bit as good as the one I sent to you. This is one reason I have not jumped into the "metric-buttload-of-lager-yeast-starter" world.

It is certainly hard to argue with what has worked. I didnt taste a damn thing that seemed "off" in that beer. And I really dont know if an underpitch on the first run of a yeast can cause the issues in subsequent batches, but it wouldnt surprise me if it could. Obviously the issue has to be yeast health/pitch rate or sanitation. Starting with the recommended starter size seems like the easiest fix for the least sinister problem.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Ken, I have no problem shipping a flask. It's not as hard as shipping beer and I have an extra one I'd be willing to part with for beer.

 

Bumping starters. use yeastcalculator.com like said previously. I do this all the time. I only use 1 packet of yeast for a batch, there's really no reason to use more than one, you don't get much more growth and it costs more.

 

Make the first starter according to the calculator. After 20-24 hours, put the starter in the fridge and let the yeast settle and spent wort clear. Once the yeast has settled make the next starter wort. I usually take the other starter out of the fridge and let it warm up to room temp. When the wort is cool enough for the second starter wort to be pitched, decant the spent wort from the first starter, then add the new starter wort. Make sure the stir bar isn't stuck in the yeast, and put the new starter on the stir plate.

 

It's pretty easy, but it takes me a good 50-58 hours to have the starter ready for pitching with both growth phases and clearing time. I usually start mine on Thursday night for a Sunday afternoon pitch.

[matt6150]

Ken, I have no problem shipping a flask. It's not as hard as shipping beer and I have an extra one I'd be willing to part with for beer.Bumping starters. use yeastcalculator.com like said previously. I do this all the time. I only use 1 packet of yeast for a batch, there's really no reason to use more than one, you don't get much more growth and it costs more.Make the first starter according to the calculator. After 20-24 hours, put the starter in the fridge and let the yeast settle and spent wort clear. Once the yeast has settled make the next starter wort. I usually take the other starter out of the fridge and let it warm up to room temp. When the wort is cool enough for the second starter wort to be pitched, decant the spent wort from the first starter, then add the new starter wort. Make sure the stir bar isn't stuck in the yeast, and put the new starter on the stir plate.It's pretty easy, but it takes me a good 50-58 hours to have the starter ready for pitching with both growth phases and clearing time. I usually start mine on Thursday night for a Sunday afternoon pitch.

That may work if it ferments out that quick. I usually have to give more time than that.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I have no problem shipping a flask. It's not as hard as shipping beer and I have an extra one I'd be willing to part with for beer. Bumping starters. use yeastcalculator.com like said previously. I do this all the time. I only use 1 packet of yeast for a batch, there's really no reason to use more than one, you don't get much more growth and it costs more. Make the first starter according to the calculator. After 20-24 hours, put the starter in the fridge and let the yeast settle and spent wort clear. Once the yeast has settled make the next starter wort. I usually take the other starter out of the fridge and let it warm up to room temp. When the wort is cool enough for the second starter wort to be pitched, decant the spent wort from the first starter, then add the new starter wort. Make sure the stir bar isn't stuck in the yeast, and put the new starter on the stir plate. It's pretty easy, but it takes me a good 50-58 hours to have the starter ready for pitching with both growth phases and clearing time. I usually start mine on Thursday night for a Sunday afternoon pitch.

Okay, that sounds easy enough and I have this Wyeast 2002 that I can use as my first run at it. Rich, PM me your address and I will tap some of this MLPA into bottles. I have some 750ml bottles that I can clean, sanitize and fill with a cobra tap. I winced a little about this when I sent beer to nettles because 1) shipping beer is a PITA and 2) you just never know how the beer will travel and whether it will be good, flat, carbed, oxidized, etc. when it arrives. The beer I sent to nettles seems to have arrived in decent shape, thank Jeebus. I'm probably ripping you off... homebrew for what is probably a $20 to $25 piece of equipment?   

[SchwanzBrewer]

Okay, that sounds easy enough and I have this Wyeast 2002 that I can use as my first run at it. Rich, PM me your address and I will tap some of this MLPA into bottles. I have some 750ml bottles that I can clean, sanitize and fill with a cobra tap. I winced a little about this when I sent beer to nettles because 1) shipping beer is a PITA and 2) you just never know how the beer will travel and whether it will be good, flat, carbed, oxidized, etc. when it arrives. The beer I sent to nettles seems to have arrived in decent shape, thank Jeebus. I'm probably ripping you off... homebrew for what is probably a $20 to $25 piece of equipment?   

 

nah, I've wanted to try your MLPA for years now. An easy way to get a good fill is to set the gas really low, evacuate the bottle of O2 if possible (with CO2), shove a sanitized plastic racking cane into the cobra tap and gently fill the bottle. With a cobra tap you have to remember to press the handle down fully or else you get foaming. Also, about the air evac... it's three days to Tampa via ground. So for it to reach here unstaled means you have to evacuate the bottle with CO2 before you fill. Easy as shoving a sanitized line sans QD into the bottle and turning the valve on for 7 seconds.

[Brauer]

Here are some useful numbers for starters and for stepping up starters (these numbers are for a stir plate, based on my analysis of Kai's growth data):

You want about a Liter or Qt. (or more) for each 100 Billion, in order to avoid stunting growth. (You might get away with as little as 0.75 L and still get full growth, but you aren't leaving any overhead.) Below that, the yeast don't have enough food to both eat and reproduce at their full rate.

In that case, you'll add about 150 billion cells for each Liter. So, a vial goes into a liter, at 100 Billion per L, to yield 100 Billion + (1 L x 150 Billion/L) = 250 Billion. (0.75 L would yield 100 + (0.75*150) = 200 Billion, but below that growth is stunted.)

To repitch that 250 Billion, you would want 2.5 L+ (2 Liters, minimum, if you want to push it.)

 

I don't know that yeast are of poorer quality if their growth is stunted by over pitching a starter, but it is an indication that they are nutrient starved. That would be something worth trying to avoid when trying to optimize yeast health.

[SchwanzBrewer]

That may work if it ferments out that quick. I usually have to give more time than that.

 

once the krausen drops in the flask you've gone through most of the growth phase that your going to get.

[Big Nake]

I'm going to start a yeast company where when you buy a package of yeast, there is enough yeast to avoid making a starter.    I never did understand why the Wyeast packaging says, "Enough yeast to directly inoculate 5 gallons of wort"... or whatever that wording is. 

 

Oh, I just read it:  Our Wyeast Activator is designed to inoculate 5 gallons of wort with the same pitch rate as recommended by professional brewers. 

[matt6150]

once the krausen drops in the flask you've gone through most of the growth phase that your going to get.

I don't get krausen to drop after 24 hours most of the time.

[matt6150]

I'm going to start a yeast company where when you buy a package of yeast, there is enough yeast to avoid making a starter.    I never did understand why the Wyeast packaging says, "Enough yeast to directly inoculate 5 gallons of wort"... or whatever that wording is. 

 

Oh, I just read it:  Our Wyeast Activator is designed to inoculate 5 gallons of wort with the same pitch rate as recommended by professional brewers. 

What, you didn't know they were talking about 1.030 OG wort?

[SchwanzBrewer]

I don't get krausen to drop after 24 hours most of the time.

 

OK, that's fine. I usually see it after about 18 hours. I'm making my starters at around 72-74 degrees. If yours are cooler I could see that happening.

[djinkc]

I don't get krausen to drop after 24 hours most of the time.

 

 

OK, that's fine. I usually see it after about 18 hours. I'm making my starters at around 72-74 degrees. If yours are cooler I could see that happening.

 

Mine usually finish in about 24 hours.  Sometimes a bit longer if I have sat on the harvested yeast from the previous starter.  Ambient for me is around 70 df give or take a couple degrees depending on the season.  Stir plates make a huge difference for time and yield.  Every time I have a PC die the HD magnets, fans and power supply get saved.  Same with wall worts.  You can make a stir plate for pennies from that.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Mine usually finish in about 24 hours.  Sometimes a bit longer if I have sat on the harvested yeast from the previous starter.  Ambient for me is around 70 df give or take a couple degrees depending on the season.  Stir plates make a huge difference for time and yield.  Every time I have a PC die the HD magnets, fans and power supply get saved.  Same with wall worts.  You can make a stir plate for pennies from that.

 

Mine is always on a stir plate and starting from a fresh pack of yeast. I do too many styles and too long between similar beers to harvest and store yeast. I only buy one pack for a batch and build from there. My LHBS is damn good about having fresh yeast, they have a brewery and a lot of homebrewers so the yeast never sits long and they get new shipments every week. The 3068 I bought last night is a week old.